Reform aren't a proper political party - why are we pretending they are?

[Slightyamusedandsilly]

Farage isn't a real political leader. He's a hype 'em up, sound bite merchant. When he was an MEP he rarely bothered to attend. He just wants the kudos without any desire or ability to do the actual work.

The councils run by them are chaos, having increased council tax massively despite promises to the contrary.

Reform is just the next iteration of the National Front, BNP, English Defence League. Farage is no better than Nick Griffin.

Agree. Ultimately, money talks—they’re well funded by nefarious individuals and populism is click bait, creating mountains of cash for some.

Reform = chaos for the many and tons of cash for the few.

Like Trump, Reform is “cultural heroin”—coined by JD Vance before he became a full time grifter. Populism is a means to an end—exploiting those who are desperate to benefit the most privileged and wealthy & always ends in destruction.

I’m unsure if Farage wants power but Jenrick and Braverman would sell their granny for it. They are dangeous as they are starting on the face of it to look serious - many work colleagues very tempted by reform and have already decided to vote for them next time.

The daily Reform thread 🥱

It's alarming to see how incredibly easy it is for some voters to be manipulated.

With thinking at this level of sophistication, there is really no hope left for democracy. We are all fucked.

He's a hype 'em up, sound bite merchant.

That what I think about Zack Polanski too. We need serious politicians not misogynistic showmen.

Where are the serious politicians going to come from?

It’s depressing

Fancy that, politicians going for leadership and voters voting for whom they fancy. How very dare they.

He doesn’t attend his constituency now, does he? I thought I read that in the news.

Curious about which industry you work in? Populism — magic beans are very tempting for some.

The thing about leaving the ECHR and replacing it with a British Bill of Rights is that..

Immigration control is not (and never has been) solely the purview of the ECHR.

The IK already has separate immigration acts - which could be amended before being put before parliament..

More significantly (and it baffles me that people don’t realise this) asylum is granted under the Refugee Convention (a separate convention pre-dating the ECHR).

The UK would need to leave the Refugee Convention (does Reform even mentor propose this?) repeal various immigration acts and the UK’s Human Rights Act.

I love Reform voter optimism that all of that (with replacement Acts of parliament drawn up and passed through parliament) in a one term government.

And that leaves aside the other conventions - Convention Against Torture, Convention on the rights of the child, convention against trafficking…

So if one imagines all of those conventions were no longer applicable to the UK because we exited all 5 of them, replaced the Human Rights Act, replaced the Immigration Acts, (they’d need parliament to vote for each of these by the way)… costs for this (not to mention all that civil service overtime drafting legislation!!!!), then the Equality Act….

The thing is we don’t have a USA style scenario where a president can write a vote on the back of a fag packet when he wakes up in a bad mood and call it an executive order.

No matter WHAT Farage or Tice or anyone else says these are facts. I worked in immigration law in the civil service so it’s not a case of political leanings..

The government ( “reform” government ) would need an overall majority plus overall persuasive clout on the Treasury and the Home Office to spend money on such drastic and costly endeavours.

If they could accomplish any of this I’ll eat my feet!!

If the Rwanda plans could be overturned so easily by the judiciary (entirely foreseeable) they’d have a hell of a time getting a British Bill of Rights through parliament and actually active that could pass an immigration tribunal because all an immigration judge has to do is consider any one of those conventions left standing to allow an appeal for someone to remain in the UK… It’s not the quick trip to Asda middle aisle of select your rights for the British that Reform want to portray it.

And finally.. even if they could withdraw from every convention and draft their Bill, costing it and enforcing it.. they have to spend enormous sums trying to remove people from the UK (come all ye taxpayers!) .. but they won’t ever be able to remove someone who can’t get a travel document- airlines won’t allow them on board and host/home countries won’t grant them entry.

but the only person who will be "fucked" by a reform govt is yourself (and 99% of your friends and family). I completely understand the attraction of a protest vote but do you think the current Labour/cons/etc politicians are going to be the ones most impacted? They will just skip on to a different high paid career, possibly leave the country. Some of them will probably be quite relieved!

You (we) are the ones who are going to be fucked, with higher council tax, 18 year olds on £100,000 chief exec salaries, councils barely functioning, fully privatised at worst or hugely reduced NHS at best, as staff from overseas (understandably!) don't want to work in a country where they are not wanted, government sanctioned discrimination against working women...

None of this is conjecture or just points to slag off reform - it has either already happened in the places where they have won seats or has been suggested as policies by key party members themselves! Farage has already proved he has no intention of actually keeping to anything he claims - extra £350million for the NHS, anyone?

I don't understand how anyone can draw a correlation between Brexit and think 'Yeah that went well, let's have more of that!'

That’s not true but there’s not a lot of point trying to discuss this stuff as these threads are really toxic.

Sorry for the typos (had DC on my lap, wriggling)

The most I can imagine (trying to follow on from my rather mangled post above) Reform managing to do - get a lot of MPs voted in who will spend a lot of time arguing with the Conservatives that they’d form a coalition doing and ultimately drafting immigration policies that won’t make it through parliament and costing taxpayers a lot of money. That and cutting taxes for the very wealthy (not middle earners), removing any blockages to second homes being purchased, encouraging very wealthy “investors” to the UK property market, and ending funding to the NHS. They might try, but would fail, to get rid of the triple lock on pensions - if they put that as part of their manifesto they will get fewer votes but they aren’t that stupid - and making welfare impossible for those with mental health conditions to get benefits, I expect that will include children with autism.
They won’t “stop the boats”.
They can’t force France to take back people on boats crossing the channels, especially if they are undocumented (see the Refugee Convention).
They can close so-called migrant hotels and have asylum seekers living in the streets or try to policy-up some kind of detention centres (already have these of course)

And.. I’ve just seen that today they in fact made some policy announcements to the effect that they’d re-impose the 2 child benefits cap, not allow anyone to”not British” to access benefits (the Irish too??), end “abuse” of the Motability scheme (I’ll try not to laugh at that), back Heathrow expansion, stop diversity targets and other so-called “red tape” for businesses (unspecified), cut benefits for mental heath unless proven (thought this was already the case?), support investment in AI and robotics and manufacturing,
No mention of cutting Universal credit or pensions (the biggest welfare benefits costs by far).

The trouble is we had serious politicians in the past but the media hated them Crosland, Foot and Tony Benn for the left. Enoch Powell (until the rivers of blood speech), Hessletine and Hague for the right.

Agree or disagree with their politics, they had a full grasp of the political world and inspired others... but the press in particular destroyed any chance of success for any of them

The NHS isnt staffed by illegal immigrants.
Its staffed by people who applied through appropriate channels and jumped through hoops to get here and they're as pissed as the rest of us.

Actually @GasPanic , Reform is set up as a private limited company, not a political party. It has shares and share holders (the biggest ones being Farage and Tice). They keep it quiet, but its main purpose is to make its leaders richer than they already are. Their game plan is to fool ordinary people (some may say poorly educated, guillable people) into thinking they have the intention of running the country according to their beliefs and promises. Actually, they just want to be a pressure group for the ultra rich, none of whom live in the UK, and line their pockets. Hopefully, they will do very well in the upcoming local elections and people will see what shitehawks they are when they don't deliver in their councils.

Everything you say about Reform is true, but whilst the "proper" political parties keep ignoring the majority of the population and what matters to them, they are literally pushing them into voting Reform because Farage does listen to what people are frustrated about. I wouldn't vote for him in a million years but I can see how he appeals to a lot of people fed up with things as they are.

Part of the point, I think, is so that in the eventuality where they win and then Farage gets ousted by his MPs in a no-confidence vote, he still owns the majority of shares and therefore maintains control of the "party".

@Mingspingpongball - "I love Reform voter optimism that all of that (with replacement Acts of parliament drawn up and passed through parliament) in a one term government."

You'd think they'd have learned from the Brexit debacle that there are actual laws and international obligations involved here, and a governing party can't just tear them up as they wish.

Reform has subscribers, not members.

I will be voting reform. Are you suggesting that this Labour govt has stuck to any of its manifesto promises. All they do is U turns, try to cancels elections illegally, accept free clothes, glasses, tickets and institute 2 tier policing. Not to mention appointing mandelson

Reform has members . Join and you'll get a membership number