How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

I'd be very careful about this long-term planning for grammar school in a grammar school heavy area, when you don't even know how academically inclined your children will be. Comprehensives in grammar heavy areas or in close proximity to a grammar are much worse performing than comprehensives at distance to grammar schools or in non-grammar counties. In fact, there are no secondary schools in special measures in non-grammar counties ... you do the maths.

So if you're children are not academically inclines or just happen not to perform as well as they need to in the exams, then you'll end up in a worse position than they might have.

This is why I detest grammar schools, and moved out to a non-grammar county. Our secondary schools are all excellent and rated outstanding.

I did it as a kid and it destroyed my confidence and friendship making ability so it isn't something I want to put my kids through.

But I do appreciate everyones comments. I may have to push DP more towards homeschooling for now.

If your DC have a strong likelihood of getting a place (and, typically, will need to have received appropriate private coaching that you have paid for) then why not.

But think about the situation, if your DC do not get into the grammar school in that area. In that case you are looking at them attending the equivalent of the old secondary modern.

Before you relocate, have a look at the schools in the area for those pupils who do not get into a grammar school. If you would be happy with your DC attending those then relocate.

If not, then wait until they pass the exam and are accepted ( most grammar schools accept applications from outside the immediate area).

I am in my early 60s and went to a Grammar school. Mine was the only Grammar school in the large London Borough as the Government had made an the others in the area into comprehensive schools the year before.

They retained only one girls' grammar school and one boys' one in this large London borough.

How do you know that this won't happen with whatever Government is in when your kids are at the right age?

Your DC might turn out to be geniuses or not. One type of school might suit them better than another. It's so early to decide if that's the only reason to move.

That however is very unusual, living through your children is not healthy. How would you personally fund homeschooling without it having an impact on the family budget?

No, the teachers are knackered and stressed from dealing with the unreasonable demands of parents, who want to know why their precious offspring didn't get an A* 😉.

Kids are brighter and generally work harder

My brother, ExH and I all went to grammars in one county, and my son is now at grammar in another county.

in my experience, it’s not about money, grammars don’t automatically have more/better facilities than other schools at all (though there is a correlation that grammar schools tend to be older schools, so may have ‘collected’ more facilities such as sports fields over decades of development)

as I’m sure you know they are very selective and only take the top % of kids following academic testing, so of course those kids will perform better on average at GCSE/A-level than the average score of a school with all abilities. They probably would have performed well at a regular school too, but the average will look higher as there is nobody of lower ability sitting the tests at a grammar.

in terms of environment, yes I think the behavioural culture can be different. All schools have their problems, and all teachers have stresses, but they are just different.
You are less likely to find kids acting out because they are bored or disengaged from learning, so there’s a general attitude of positivity around knuckling down and learning, and the teachers at grammar don’t have to spend time working with those of lower ability so can push the brighter ones harder.
however teens are teens wherever they are so behaviour will never be perfect!

if I were you I’d look at the amount of applicants vs places offered, consider whether your child is likely to get in, and visit the schools before moving. I’d rather find a brilliant comprehensive a short move away than move far away from friends and family just for the hope of a grammar place - and I’m pro grammar!

Is that a state grammar? Afaik they don’t specifically have smaller classes. And an averagely academic student would not normally get in - or would struggle once there. If it’s a private school using grammar in the name then that’s different obvs.

@Karma1387 re HE - I am not against it as some are here, but IMO it needs to be for the right reasons. For a YP who is struggling in school (perhaps bc of bullying, they are ND, anxiety) it can be great. But to choose it cold is unusual; also yes, do you have the skills to cover the secondary curriculum? I’m a qualified secondary teacher and I would not want to teach GCSE physics. The alternative is somewhere like Interhigh but it’s ££.

I moved out on London to another town and I did choose a house as close as possible to the local girls grammer school so my DD's would have the best opportunity to get in.

Its not a hugely selective grammer school and I certainly didn't pay over the odds for my house, but it worked for both my DD's and they have both gone to the grammer school after doing the 11+ exams etc.

DD2 got in on appeal and our house location became useful for that. DD1 is more academic & got in from 11+ only.

I'm glad I did this - I can not afford private schooling (I'm a single parent) and this was the best option for us. Both my DD's have benfited from this school & my decision to try & live close enough for them to attend.

You would be bonkers to move for Grammars before your child is even at primary.

You have no idea whether your child will be in the top 25% of achievers that grammars typically take. (5% for 'super selectives' where distance plays no part and it is simply those with the highest scores rather than everyone who passes)

Even if she is you have no guarantee that on the one day when they sit a test to determine the place, that she wouldn't have some fit of nerves, or brain go blank, or just get it wrong on the day.

Grammar results are based wholly on the capability of the cohort.

My Dc did very well indeed in top sets of a comprehensive and though we are in S London and the school took kids from hugely problematic estates and an adjoining 'aspirational' area (as is common in London where high density social housing is right next to a conservation area of £1m houses) ,the kids did well and achieved their potential at all ability levels and behaviour was on the whole good.

The overall average GCSE grade doesn't inform the level your dc will achieve.

I would look for an area with good comprehensives.

But I do appreciate everyones comments. I may have to push DP more towards homeschooling for now.

Why?

What if your kids dont get in ?

You can't really compare Grammar schools to comprehensive schools as the vast majority of the UK don't hsve them ,I think there are only 167 in the whole of England.
And 63? In Northern Ireland.

Actually, I think that depends where you are relocating from. My children go to a comprehensive in a grammar area. They are both bright kids (all 7-9 at GCSEs) and I wouldn't swap for a grammar. The children come from all over from neighbouring counties, so friends are often not local, the school does does fewer sports and after-school clubs (as so many children have long commutes).

My children are very fortunate they have supportive family, space at home to work etc, plenty of experience in sports teams, extra curricular activities. Many don't- I think the home life is at least as important as the school tbh.

Class sizes- at A level stage my kids are in classes of 8-12.

I worry I will be judged answering this but as you have asked I will answer.

Honestly especially for primary schools I hate the pressure and expectations of such young children. I have nephews learning serious maths at 5 years old and it makes me a bit sad. I think there is so much more to a childs life than sitting in a classroom of 30 children!

Secondary schools a lot of it is the excessive rules, lack of care for childrens health and mental health as well as the behaviour often described in secondary schools.

I value education but I dont think the education system is all its cracked up to be!

I know most of what I have said contradicts the aiming for grammar school but thats because it is what my partner wants for the kids and as I dont like the comprehensives I am going along with it.

What school/social environment are they going to get if you homeschool? Do you have sufficient income to be able to homeschool?

There are no grammars in my entire county. DD would've aimed for a place in one if there was. No one sits 11+ because it's pointless, but she did very well in her SATS.
DD still gained 8/9s at GCSE in a fairly average Northern secondary school.
There is only one sixth form college in our town. It isn't attached to a school. There, she gained A levels in maths, physics and chemistry, all at Grade A. She is now studying for a Masters in mathematical physics.
I do wonder whether she'd have had the grades and confidence to apply to Oxford or Cambridge if she'd attended a more academic school. She does attend a good university (red brick/Russell Group).
DD said maths and sciences (iirc) were fine at school because they were streamed , but there was a lot of disruption in some classes, where it wasn't 'cool' to be academic.

Not necessarily. My DD went to the grammar ( in fact someone mentioned it in Chelmsford) We live 8 miles away. Our local comp ( that the other 2 attended) was pretty good also

There's a certain breed of teacher who only really likes teaching the bright pupils who are really interested in their subject.

There are also teachers who get satisfaction from the pastoral side of supporting "difficult" kids.

And teachers who like getting less bright children to get the subject matter.

The first gravitate to grammar schools.

@Karma1387 you are at the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to education if you don't want any pressure and your DH wants grammar school. Your child will probably need to be tutored from Y4/Y5 if you want to get into a selective grammar school.

we found they stream in comprehensives anyway so the disruptive behaviour isnt in the top sets.
selective schools also look amazing but they are basically just the top 20% of a comprehensive school. my two kids came out of a comprehensive school with 7-9s and A* in alevels. as long as the school stream the kids the disruption shouldn't be a worry to bright kids. if your kids end up the bottom sets then consider home schooling them

Only if you can be sure your kids will all comfortably pass the 11+ and that the location of the property you're proposing to buy guarantees that you fall within the grammar school in question's geographical selection area.

It concerns me that you don't already know/understand why grammar schools produce better results than bog standard comprehensives.

First off I do have grammar experience having seen DD through it (she has left now in year 12) and it isn’t for everyone it is an intense experience that suited her until year 11 but not her brother who is thriving at a local comp

their paths suited them but would not have suited the other

what strikes me @Karma1387 is that so much of your posts are about you and your partner and your issues with things and not your children - you are making decisions based on you and not your children

As lots of people are suggesting moving to a grammar area without knowing the kids academic ability is wrong but I don't want to move the kids primary school so may have to push DP to let me homeschool for now as our primarys arent great here either.

Grammars in the southern half of Lincolnshire are not highly selective, they take about 25%. However, although this means they are easier to get into than the super selective, it also means that the non grammar schools have a very hard job to get anywhere near the results of the grammars, but they don’t do a bad job and they are well regarded locally ( one has turned itself around hugely in recent years) Also, if you want to do A levels, there is no option but to go to the grammars for sixth form- unless you travel 20 miles in either direction to go to a local college.