How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

I have! DP however won't agree but based on this thread I may have to try to convince him towards this/homeschooling.

I grew up in a grammar school/secondary midterm system and went to a grammar school. I now live in an area with excellent comprehensive schools and no grammar schools. There's absolutely no way I would move to a grammar system instead of a good comprehensive one.

@TorroFerney Hence why I didn’t say all schools…

They are academically selective and most children have to work quite hard to get in. The 'don't give a shit about education' parents don't get involved in that process so their kids don't go to grammar schools.

I work in education, specifically secondary grammar schools.

In a nutshell (and generalising), students are very bright and usually taken from a fairly large catchment area (example: one grammar I worked for would take students as long as they were within 10 kilometres, comprehensives in the same area would rarely have students from more than a mile away). Broadly there are less students with SEN and less behavioural issues which means less disruption in class time. The teaching style is different to a comprehensive (in my experience) as it is tailored to these unusually high achieving students.

I have seen many students really struggle both academically and with their mental health - the child has to be hugely committed and motivated AND be able to cope with the expectations (of the school and that they put on themselves). Many bright students would do as well academically in a good comprehensive.

Homeschooling can be amazing for some children. But what children learn from both primary and secondary is how to function in society. Attendance, making friends, being on time, working in groups etc. You might be able to get that from homeschool groups, but the social side of school has been hugely important for my DC.
Do you have the ability to cover nine or more subjects tona good standard at GCSE? Are you and your children motivated to do that without the framework of school?

100% not engineers or doctors! So no guarantee the kids will be academically able at all.

We are in North London and kids travel for hours to get to the grammar schools near here. Thousands apply. Only the best get in. Its incredibly tough i hear - we will try but i very much doubt will get in!

If a comprehensive streams and uses explicit teaching at all levels those in the top streams should achieve as well as in a grammar school and those of lesser ability will do as well as good students elsewhere. The problems to look for are schools that go for 'relevance', 'the skills curriculum' (though doing that has been more difficult since Grove pushed for a knowledge rich curriculum), and mixed ability teaching (less fashionable now, and really hard for teachers to manage as are constant demands for 'differentiation').

Oh god, don’t home educate. Even a bad comp - of which there are many - would be better than the disastrous effect of trying to teach your own children.

My daughter goes to a grammar and we wanted to because of smaller classes and more of a family feel. She’s averagely academic but doing well in her exams. Don’t regret our decision once to send her there.

I went to two different grammar schools (second was for A Levels). It’s quite simple really - the kids are very bright (top 3% of 11+ in those days, 30 odd years ago). Also, parental support was so much higher as the parental cohort generally had good careers, high educational capital and valued “doing well” at school abd going off to university (which about 95% of us did.) However, it didn’t suit everyone. Those who had been coached to within an inch of their lives for admission definitely struggled by Y9 and generally were miserable by the end of GCSEs. Your children will need to be both naturally bright and also academically keen. Even in DHs family (all bright with great careers now) only 2/4 got into the local grammars as thresholds are very high.

We are in a grammar area. Within the area there are also very good and very bad comps. I would move for good comprehensives (the house prices will match though) but not for grammar as there is no guarantee they will get in.

One of my children has got into a super selective and aged 2 was the age we noticed she was different. She could speak like she was in primary school and could read and write before preschool. I'm not sure all kids at the super selective will have been like that but I also know she will not be the brightest there. Our other child is not like that and it is early days at primary school but we hope she'll get into grammar but doubt it will be a super selective one. Luckily we live in catchment for a good comprehensive too.

I went to a state grammar school and we got very good exam results but at a cost.

• they are ruthlessly selective so only the most academically capable go.
• The focus is relentlessly on grades and passing exams - we had exams at the end of every year. If anyone was struggling academically conversations would be had with parents about whether the school was the right one for their child - essentially you could be asked to leave for not being academic enough.
• A narrow academic curriculum is followed and if you were danger of getting mediocre grades you will be encouraged to drop certain subjects before exams.

I thrived at grammar school as i am a horrible swot who responds well to exams and pressure. However I am always astonished how many parents feel if they hot house tutor their child to get to a grammar then it will be a good thing. Seriously if your child need intensive tutoring to pass the 11 plus the next seven years of their life will be hellish - the pressure is relentless.

What are your reasons for wanting to homeschool and keep your children out of the school system @Karma1387

In the grammar that my daughter went to some parents actually moved in from the next county once their daughter had been offered a place.

I went to a comprehensive school but I would have loved the opportunity to go to a grammar school. We didn't have them where I grew up.

I'm so split on this issue. I'd be fine with comprehensives if they were all of a high standard, and poor behaviour and feckless parents were managed.

But it's a lottery, isn't it?

So, if you have the opportunity to send them to a grammar, then do it. There's obviously the barrier of the 11+, but of course you'll support them throughout.

Good luck.

DS1 wasnt academically gifted and went to a regular secondary school. However we didnt tolerate any bullshit from him and kept a close eye on his behaviour. The teachers saw us as being supportive and supported Ds1 a lot and us. So much to the point he really thrived and achieved really good academic results which allowed him to do what he wanted.

A year or so later I visited the school a lot through my work. I was working with kids who had very low attendance( 20% in some cases) and poor behaviour issues.
It was interesting because I could see the teachers weren't over invested in the children whose parents didn't value education or positive behaviour. Me and dh got a lot of support when ds was being a dick head because they knew we cared, put in consequences and supported them.

What im saying in a round about way, is i feel you get out what you put in with schools. Show up, show you support them and support your child in his home life and they will help your child to achieve, regardless of the type of school.
In your shoes I would be near family.

I went to Kings in Grantham, teaching was poor, bullying was a problem and sexism was rife in both the staff and the students, it wasn’t unusual for teachers to call the girls at KG (girls grammar) slags, this was in the early 2000’s, so not that long ago. Homophobia and racism were also a huge problem. Facilities are poor too, no on site PE you have to go to a site a few miles away for PE lessons, no outdoor space at break apart from a very small concrete quad. The science labs are in the old buiding, so it really limits carrying out practicals. Physical classrooms are very small as there isn’t any scope for increasing the school site.

I moved to what was then called central, now Priory Ruskin. It couldn’t have been more different, plus women were successful teachers and successful children, not just the cleaners who were treated like scum by the teachers. Brilliant facilities, great sport facilities, not in the town centre so less polution, easier for getting there and home if being collected by a parent.

A teacher from Kings was recently found to be sexually abusing at least one pupil, she has now been banned from teaching.

Looking at this news article it seems Kings boys haven’t changed.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1413641/grammar-school-kings-school-investigate-gang-rape-claims

Having been born and brought up in Grantham - and visited very regularly since - I would never move there without good reason. Passing the 11+ isn't enough, your children may still not get in depending on how many pass. I know of bright children who didn't. You are much better, if you must move, choosing a place with all round good schools. I am grammar educated, my daughter State. She went to an excellent comprehensive (not even in the top 3 comprehensives in our city and yet great results, good pastoral care, sports and Arts and also got several a year into Oxbridge if that's your bag). Her education was probably better than my selective education. Oh, and no knives (!), no more drugs than any other schools (and less than the private schools) and no bullying for being clever. She was treated as an individual and thrived. There are of course bad comps out there - and bad grammars and bad private schools - but there are many, many brilliant schools doing brilliant things for all pupils, not just the hot-housed ones.

We moved specifically to be close to grammar schools, it was a gamble because the comprehensives here are terrible. I was pretty confident my children would pass the 11+, but we didn’t move until the summer before they started year 4. In your situation I would wait and see how academic they are before making a decision.

Do you have any experience in education? Can you survive on just your DP's income? What if you start home educating and find you or your DC's don't like it?
There are good state schools around.

We have a local historic Grammar School. I say historic, as it calls itself a grammar school, but stopped being selective in the 1970s. We are actually in the next county so never stood much of a chance of getting in, but we’ve been to a couple of open days. Essentially, they were founded in 1600 and something. They’ve accumulated and invested a reasonable amount of funds from benefactors over the last 400 n odd years.

Grammar schools are often incredibly selective with results in the first place, demographic, location and attitudes of children and parents also come into play plus all grammar schools will have a “voluntary contribution” which isn’t so voluntary and amounts to several hundred pounds per pupil annually which bumps up their income.
Religious schools also have their income topped up or their running costs reduced therefore giving them more budget.

Yes I never got the point of all the coaching either. DD did some practice papers but I definitely couldn't afford coaching Some of the other girls still had extra tuition while at the school and they tended to be floating round the bottom of the classes