How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

There are a few kids in every year who definitely seem like they wouldn't have been bright enough to get in without heavy tutoring, but the vast majority are academically able. The weaker ones do not get asked to leave, they just get lower results than the rest. Being at the bottom in an academic school is not a fun place to be though. If you havs a generally more intelligent cohort and a more stable, well-qualified staff, of course you are going to get better results.

I have 3 in grammar school (one just about to leave).

The academic ability is very high - they only take the top 20% of 11+ students here. Plus the parents are generally highly invested in their children's learning. There's never any serious behaviour incidents at our school and very little SEN.

It's absolutely night and day compared to the local comps.

Sorry to sound silly but what do you mean by does the comprehensive stream?

Test the dc upon entry into yr 7 and put them into sets based on their ability with different teachers depending upon set.

You say the local comprehensive is awful however things change rapidly in education. As your children are at least 7 years away from secondary a lot can change!!!

I'm in a grammar area. I wouldn't suggest moving to a grammar area, personally. The secondary school here is bad, very bad behaviour, bad results, presumably because the good kids get creamed off into the grammar school. So there's huge pressure on very little kids to do tutoring and homework etc and take a very difficult exam. I'm not sure I'd pass! Friends tell me the teaching at grammar isn't actually all that. And a friend's son has been bullied. I would pick a nice comprehensive to aim for instead.

Why the sneering attitude? It’s a shame we have such a prevalent anti-ambition attitude in this country.

Super young. Eldest is only 2 but we have to apply to primary schools next year so we are trying to make a decision before we have to apply for his primary school.

Cream off the most able pupils

Have skimmed the thread better and wanted to flag:

Grammar schools (unless fee-paying private schools) are state schools too.

I am not entirely sure that no one is bringing knives into a grammar. That's a bold claim. What's it based on I wonder? I really don't think it's as simple as grammar = no knives; comp = everyone has a knife. Not that anyone is saying that. But there were no knife incidents at my DCs' comp in the 10 years they were there (between them) and there was one at the comp I taught at in about 10 years. Obvs that's one too many.

@Karma1387 just seen your oldest is 2yo! gosh I think I would wait to move before I had assessed how able they were – and look carefully as some grammars are top 10% and others are top 25% (so the latter are easier to get into; otoh the sec mod will in theory have no very able pupils at all)

Both my daughters go/went to grammar school. There are two issues:

Results are 'sausage in/ sausage out'. If you select academic ability at 11 it mostly translates at GCSE. The teaching doesn't necessarily add much value, some comps do better.

It's a nicer place for nerdier children to be because it's calmer and you're allowed to be interested in your dorky special interest.

Grammar school has been great for my girls but they're not a "better" school experience for everyone.

In short because they do not let the delinquents in so the teachers can actually teach rather than deal with behaviour issues.

my child’s school only sets for maths. There is a top set where they will get 9’s and are also entered for further maths gcse. That doesn’t mean the rest are just left, my daughter set out probably at a 6/7 and is now predicted an 8/9 .

I don't want to have to move my kids primary schools 😕 so we are trying to make a decision by the end of the year but its a huge decision!

I definitely wouldn’t move just for a grammar area - your child might not get in. My friend lives a few miles away in a sought after grammar area and her very bright, academically high achieving daughter just didn’t do well in her 11+. Just didn’t perform well on the day. As a result she had to get a bus at 7.15 every morning to travel over an hour to the only comp remotely close to where she lived that she was prepared to send her daughter to. Imagine if she had uprooted her families lives for that? Friend’s daughter now has a fab career of her choosing and is a postgrad, so her academic trajectory was not diminished at all.

I think both parents changing jobs and also moving house into a grammar school area (unless you are very keen to live there for other reasons) is totally bonkers. Even more so if your DCs aren't even school age yet.

We had 1 at a grammar and 1 at a (not very good) secondary modern but they did almost identical GCSEs. The key to the latter was lots of parental involvement and support at home, some decent teachers and a friendship group that valued education and wanted to do well - all 8 of DD's went to university and 3 have Masters (including DD who has a particularly impressive MSc).

Trouble is that you could move next door to a wonderful secondary school (whether grammar or not) and it could change beyond all recognition before your DC starts there.

Bright kids. Hardly any dickhead parents.

It’s too soon! Your kids may have SEN, they may be quirky ’artistic’ types.
School choice should be based on their needs, not your academic aspirations for them!

We are in a grammar school area and I wish we weren’t. The competition to get into grammar is huge so people hot house their children to get into them. Because the grammar schools cream off the top 25% of students the other comprehensives feel so much worse than a regular one, they’re full of kids who have failed the 11+ (no shame in that) but not the same cross section of society.

my daughter is at a private prep but is probably borderline in terms of passing the 11+. If she doesn’t pass and she probably won’t despite private school and tutoring we will likely have to pay private for secondary because the comprehensive despite being rated “good”’is anecotally awful and has sniffer dogs on the gates checking the kids for drugs. An extreme example I know but it really creates a world of extremes. I’d want to be sure that my child was grammar material before moving to a grammar area.

just to answer your specific question @Karma1387 "on why grammar schools do better academically". They select at 11 not only the the brightest but also those committed to learning. This usually means lessons from the get go are less disruptive and kids spend more time learning, they move ahead faster on the curriculum , can learn sometimes in a more interesting way - trips/ theatre etc - as there is less behaviour management.
this is general and obvs there are exceptions!.

As a teacher who teaches in both sorts of school, the difference is overwhelming the parents. At the bare minimum, you have to jump through some hoops to get into grammar school although, for others they prep for years beforehand to get their child in. Every parent in grammar school wants their child to do well and supports them. This isn’t true in comprehensives and the children often take on their parent’s shitty attitude. Top stream in a comp can be decent as, again, you only tend to get the kids with parents who give a damn but unfortunately they still have to mix with the other type of child outside the classroom.

I could teach a class of 60 in a grammar school easily..in some comp classes I could do with a class of about 8 in order to teach them anything due to poor behaviour.

Mostly boils down to the type of child and type of family background.

My eldest would have definitely suffered at the local comprehensive. He was the best in the year and others tried to bring him down due to intense jealousy. In the grammar school people were always competing to be at the top.

Some of the children his year at primary well they weren't exactly the brightest build in the box... About 1/3rd were significantly behind government expected attainment levels in year 6 so the school had to cheat the year 6 SATS.

Have you considered a virtual school:

https://www.minervavirtual.com

There are several grammar schools in our area and they differ wildly - Some are old and crumbling and some have amazing new facilities. Generally I would say the expectations are higher at the grammars in terms of behaviour and academic outcomes. My DC's school sets a lot of homework, but does offer great support for those who might be struggling.
There are some excellent Acadamies in our area too, so think it is always worth visiting before you make a decision.