How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

1. Concentration of bright children = concentration of high results
2. Sense of competition between the brightest - push each other
3. High expectations of all - parents, teachers, students
4. Pressure to do well - not always good outcomes from this approach
5. Money - parents more likely to be wealthy or if not, still more likely to put money into education rather than other things

You need to look at the schools in more detail eg how boys perform vs girls and how they perform based on prior attainment. Although I think covid means no data for the above this year.

They only take the brightest in the area and if the kids can't keep up they find ways to get them to leave (in some cases) so they don't bring their grades down. You won't find many dyslexics or SEN amongst them unless they are unaware by 11 or they are autistic with a strong ability for maths.

The left over schools have to deal with the kids who failed and have issues with confidence, have SEN, couldn't afford tutoring or have other problems within the home which mean they don't focus well in class.

I do think this is my slight worry. We move for the school with no guarantee all or any kids will get in!

You need a backup though as the environment doesn’t suit every dc.

Well I would have thought it is fairly obvious that grammar schools get better results bc the DC there are (by a somewhat imprecise metric tbf) more able. By and large anyway. It’s not really about disruption tho yes, I imagine it is less of an issue. But 100 DC who are in the top 10% will get better results than 100 DC ranging from top to bottom of the ability pile. Obviously. But going to the grammar if not able doesn;t make your child cleverer. Eqally obviously.

I went to a grammar. Certainly people in the area who were able did not pass the exam and ended up at the sec mod. That's one reason I am not a fan.

@Karma1387 have you take account of the fact that your DC may not pass, or may pass only with a lot of tutoring (more ££)? If they fail, what will their school be like - with the top 10-/20/25% of ability creamed off? If they pass with lots of tutoring, what will life be like at the grammar? A constant struggle?

Do you know they are academically able (how old are they?)? I see you say "you never know" how able your DC are but for sure you do. Or are the still quite young?

Personally I would look to move to an area with great comprehensive schools that can cater to the differing strengths of my DC.

I see you mention Lincolnshire – if you mean S lincs (where I am from) then I would warn stroingly against that.

They are I don't disagree but I have also heard lots of parents tutor. Kids may pass but that may not long term translate to a willing child academically. I wondered if kids that don't 'keep up' academically or become disruptive after a year or so get asked to leave and if thats how they have such better results and behaviour problems?

No. Grammar school kids can absolutely behave badly two. One of my classmates was expelled for dealing drugs, my sister's year couldn't do the year 8 trip because of death threats between the girls and one of the boys in the year above hacked the school librarians password and locked her out of everything.

However, no-one has ever bullied for good grades, lessons were at a higher level because they didn't have to pace for different abilities and there was just an assumption you'd do well. We had very academic teachers who liked the prestige of the school. I'm not sure that was a plus.

Because they have bright kids, usually better behaviour, and can usually attract their pick of teachers (at a time when manh schools are struggling to recruit and often have long-term supply covering classes). The better behaviour and engagement of the students means less disruption and wasting of learning time. It also often means there are more extra-curricular opportunities.

Moving to be near a grammar school is quite a gamble though, as you have no idea whether your kids would get in!

Also you don't have to deal with the horrific behaviour issues that plague state comprehensives.

Yes as with all schools there's horrible shits and scrapes and fights and means words said. But it's usually less intense and dealt with better. My DS had 2 physical scuffles at school and they dealt with it very well, physical violence is an absolute no no. DS was punished, so was the other boys. They later on made peace.

No-one is bringing knives into a grammar school that's for sure. And if so, the school will deal with it so well.

I worry about the behaviour in a comprehensive school. Personally I would rather homeschool/tutor but DP doesn't agree.

I wondered if kids that don't 'keep up' academically or become disruptive after a year or so get asked to leave and if thats how they have such better results and behaviour problems?

Where I am, dc are tutored for years and often carry on with tutors for a bit.

I think the same parents tutor at gcse as well.

I would check out the local comps before you move too as there's no way of knowing what score a child that young might get in a few years time. Even if they are academically able some of the 11+ skills aren't anything like they learn in school. I've seen many academically able kids in class topics struggle with 11+ e.g. code words and logic problems. Also sadly some kids panic on exam day, they are only 10 after all.

I wish you luck with it all

At my grammar we had children who needed to be trained to pass the 11+, they were at best old C grade students, the streaming was very limited at our grammar, so we were very much held back. Children who can’t pass the 11+ without coaching do not belong in grammar schools. My ‘physics’ teacher had an arts degree.

Where as at my comp we were sufficiently streamed, the lowest ability in my classes there were at most one grade different, so we had all the A*/Astudents in class etc. for those borderline children there was also a higher and foundation set from mid year eleven onwards, so two grade C classes depending on their exam entries. No art teacher teaching top set triple physics either!

Not at my son’s grammar no one in his year has moved out and there is a level of disruption and mixed ability. A previous poster said you needed high passes to stay, that isn’t our experience and they have been great in supporting our son with additional help when needed.

Reading this post makes me sad that people want to move. We have grammar and comprehensive schools in our county. There is no guarantee your children will get in. Firstly they have to pass the test then you are up against lots of other children. Our area over 4000 children did the test this year for around 1000 places!!!

There are good comprehensive schools in this country which children can do really well at. We know of children who passed the test got a grammar place but decided to go to local comprehensive school. They did really well.

Your kids aren’t even Primary age yet.
Your plans for their future schooling ought to be driven by them and their needs. They may need a school with a more pastoral than academic focus. You are jumping the gun and only considering one particular route when you don’t even know if that will be suitable/beneficial for your kids.
Slow down. Learn about your kids. Then make some decisions.

My kids aren't even at primary yet! I don't however want to upheave them when they are settled at school so I want to make the decision to move before my oldest starts school.

The comprehensives aren't amazing where we are looking to go. Probably similar to where we are now maybe some a little better.

Children who can’t pass the 11+ without coaching do not belong in grammar schools.

That isn’t true of London though as a pass alone isn’t enough & most dc need help with the speed of the test.

What do you mean by "not amazing". Is your perception about what a genuinely comprehensive school can achieve warped by looking at grammar results? Have you broken results down by low/medium/high achievers?

I would not want to move to a grammar county with children not even at school age, unless I was happy with the non-grammar options.

Just to pick up on the point many PP have made, about surrounding schools being poor because the top pupils are "creamed off" - this isn't necessarily true.

I just raise this because OP mentioned Lincolnshire. My DNs attend a grammar school in Lincolnshire, and there's a comprehensive virtually next door in the same small town. (Not sure if I should name the area but if you're from around here you'll know where I mean!)

The comp is well thought of. It's a good school with a friendly and welcoming ethos and a great headteacher. Kids go to one school or the other and aren't resentful or looked down upon. Often academic kids choose to go to the comp or not to take the 11+. Just saying it's not always as you might assume.

I live in a grammar area but my kids went to the local comprehensive as grammar wouldn’t have suited them at 11. I picked a good comprehensive in an area where grammar was a possibility on purpose.

At 16, one of them considered grammar for Sixth Form but decided to stay at her school instead because she was happy there.

Have you broken results down by low/medium/high achievers?

Yes, there can be a marked difference

Sorry to sound silly but what do you mean by does the comprehensive stream?

It is 100% a concern for me if we move and then kids don't get in. The comps are similar to what is around us currently. Maybe a smidge better.

Katharine Birbalsingh has obviously proven that it's not the demographic that dictates results of course.