How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

[Karma1387]

Me and my partner are in a situation where we are looking to relocate in order to move to a Grammar school area. This is going to involve us both having to find new jobs and coordinate a house move at the same time.

Some of my family disagree with our decision to move for the sake of grammar school and don't see how they can be better than a normal comprehensive school.

I am hoping some people on here will have some knowledge on how grammar schools achieve so much better than comprehensives?

Also anyone with experience with grammar schools they could share? From what I have read the class sizes aren't much different to comprehensives and they get the same funding. Is it literally just a case of because they do the 11+ they tend to only take on the more academically inclined kids. Does this translate to less bad behaviour etc compared to comprehensive schools?

The move is going to be stressful with us both trying to find new jobs plus moving further away from both our families I want it to be worth it! Our local comprehensive is awful for results and we want to give the kids the best opportunities.

Personally I would rather homeschool and fully keep them out of the school system but my partner is very against this and is determined we need to move to a grammar school area so any advise to aid our discussion would be amazing!

Are we being unreasonable to relocate for the possibility of grammar school?

Things have changed. "Back in the day" the subject matter of the 11+ had been taught in the classrooms by the time of the exam. Nowadays, lots of aspects havn't been taught by the start of year 6 which is when the exam is taken. Teachers no longer "teach" the 11+. So basically, the chances of even the brightest child passing the 11+ without some form of tuition whether from parents or tutors is basically zilch.

We have very different views on education which makes it very hard to agree.

I haven't decided on if I will return to full time work we will see if I need to or not further down the line.

Because the move to comprehensive in the 60s was guidance rather than compulsory government policy, so areas could decide (most decided comprehensive, but not all). Northern Ireland has retained them too.

Some grammars went private at that stage (Keir Starmer's for instance).

Many/most of the best comprehensives (by best I mean Ofsted Outstanding) select by house price/access to social housing in the correct postcode. One I'm familiar with, students need to live within 900m.

Some schools select by parental religion.

An academic test is at least more relevant to educational potential than parental bank balance or religion, or happening to be resident in places like London with a lot of choice of good schools and plentiful public transport.

All I will say is my DH and I didn't entirely agree either but the factors that made our school choices for us were ones we couldn't possibly have foreseen when DD was 2. Parenting can be a huge surprise!

Well they didn't teach 11 plus papers 20 odd years ago in state primary when my DD did it. They did in private prep schools

Easier to teach as all of similar ability
Usually smaller class sizes

I don't think there are smaller classes, but easier to teach a class of 30 who are all of above average ability with engaged parents I would think

Times have changed. Schools around here do not provide any help toward the 11+. Teachers certainly don't put sample questions on the blackboard and teach technique in the weeks prior to the exam.

That is why parents rely on tutoring.

Only prep schools teach it. The regular state primaries don't. And for the most part they are hopeless anyway.

I currently have 2 DC in a grammar and one in a comp. I prefer the grammar slightly as it is less strict (none of this over the top detention for breathing stuff). The behaviour seems to be about the same in both (some very badly behaved kids, lots of noise disruption but majority of kids try hard). There is lots of SEN in the grammar as the exam seems to fit bright SEN kids well (multiple-choice short questions). Lots of pressure in grammar and I think my two grammar kids are slightly more anxious at school than my comp kid overall. The comp is better funded, has better facilities - I can only think that is down to a very active PTA, a head that is good at applying for grants for everything.
Having now experienced both I wouldn't move for the grammar but that said before sending my DC there I would have (as wanted what was perceived as the best).

My year 6 state primary teacher gave me past papers for the 11+, back in 1974.

She taught exam technique to the three of us from my year, who were taking the entrance exam. She taught us more advanced maths for years 5 &6.

My ds' state primary left him to his own devices in year 6, focusing on getting less able pupils through SATs, leaving him bored, frustrated and miserable.

Chelmsford is a rarity in that it has brilliant non selective schools too. KEGS or CCHS is very difficult but brilliant schools.

Kesteven or Kings are good schools with long time staff but aren’t similar to the ultra selective in terms of results.

If your in Fenland I understand why you'd want to move for schools. It's where DHs parents live and they where keen on the idea of us moving there. My response to DH was only if they are paying for private high school (DH went private but we couldn't afford it). Suffolk isn't to far away and has a lot of good comprehensive high schools, that's where we are and we could have sent DC to any one of 4 schools and I wouldn't have had an issue with any of them.

There is a reason why housing is cheaper there often schools can have a big affect on house prices.

Yep, sounds familiar. DD2 achieved all Level 6s in her Yr6 SATs, but had to be shipped to a neighbouring school to receive the preparation for the Level 6 Maths. Apparently none of the teachers at her primary felt comfortable teaching maths at that high a level???

It comes to something when your 10 year old DD is better at maths than any of the teachers in her school FFS!

With regards to funding, the two grammar schools two of my kids were at both encouraged a yearly donation. It was a nominal amount when they first started but then became a larger one.

I would leave it a few years when you have a better idea if your kids are grammar material or not. How academic are you and your parter? Genetics play a huge role here.

also depending on the area are you prepared to tutor from year 4-5?

You could invest in an educational consultant in a few years who will test your kids and give you an idea if they have the ability or not.

How did she get good at maths if she isn’t taught maths?

They will have the backing and support of parents too.

I think she just had a natural aptitude for maths inherited from DH?

My son was the same. He’s an accountant now!

Grammar schools are full of bright children, or average children with pushy parents who have drilled a strong work ethic into them. Either way, the cohort is likely to be far more attentive in class, and teachers are able to teach to a much higher level, rather than spending time controlling behaviour and explaining the basics to children who struggle.

Also, it is cool to be bright at grammar schools. My DS went from a primary where being top of the class meant you were mocked for being a swot, to being amazed at his selective secondary, that when he got high marks the other children clustered around and congratulated him and wanted to hang out with him more, not less.

Same. DD wants to be a forensic accountant when finally qualified.

Get some test 11+ exam papers and see if they will likely score high enough for any move.

I went to an all girls grammar school 30+ yrs ago and it was fine. Generally very little bullying unless you were weird/quiet or smelly. The only downside was the lack of socialisation with boys. It took me ages to be comfortable and to read male body language. If you take the all girls route, please do extra curricular activities in a mixed sex environment too.

My Lincolnshire town was going downhill and getting neglected. Loads of traffic issues too. I very luckily moved to Norfolk where it's beautiful, but there was things to do as kids there and still will be.

I've read the thread now and your kids aren't even old enough for primary school! You're bonkers to be thinking about this when you don't even know how academic they will be.

Plus you're massively projecting your own experience on to your kids. Just let them go to school. Don't turn them in to the weirdos that get bullied. They learn more than academics at school.

And yes, I did live in Grantham and it does take 45mins minimum to cross from one side of town to the other. Traffic is horrendous. There's some nice areas and surrounding villages though. I wouldn't choose to move back.

Good luck. 😊