To be annoyed I had to watch GB News to see coverage of anti women protestors at Southwark

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

A mother, Miranda Newsom, had her gym membership suspended for a year after reporting an "unmistakably male" trans woman in the female changing room.

Why isn't this on the BBC? The reporter in the video is doing genuinely impressive investigative journalism, didn't we used to have the national broadcaster to do this sort of thing?

I was interviewed for the Telegraph, GB News and Mr Menno. No other newspaper contacted me. The story doesn't fit their agenda, I suppose...

I don't want to see a man in the female changing room. I don't want him looking at me or other women and girls. I don't want to see him with clothes, or drying off with a towel. A few weeks before this incident, the first thing I saw when I walked into the female changing room was a woman's bum. She had a foot on the bench and was drying her legs. Fine. I don't want to see a man's bum. Many men are flashers. They get a thrill from it. Women don't tend to flash men on the street. VERY few trans-id women are trying to go in male changing rooms.
Men also hide cameras and film women and girls in changing rooms. Women are less likely to do this. This is a man problem, whatever his ideas about his "identity".

There is no code of behaviour for men who want to be in female changing rooms. I said to the manager, "What if a 14-year-old walks in and sees a naked man drying himself with a towel?" She said in panic, "Was the person naked???" I said NO, not this time, but you didn't say men can go in but only to use the toilet or wash their hands. IF you allow men in, they can shower, dry off and change, just like any woman might. I don't care HOW discreet a man is at drying off his body. I don't care if he cut off his penis. I don't want men in the female changing room, sam-I-am. Not with balls. Not with eyes. Not with a man brain.

I saw the same man in female changing room a few days before. I went to the manager of the gym floor and said there's a man in female changing room. When she established he was trans, she said, "oh, we have a lot of trans customers and as far as i know, they all use the single-user changing room." I said, "not true, as I just saw one in the female changing room." She did NOT know the gym's policy (none of the employees do/did) and said she would look into it. The next time I saw him, I spoke to him, calmly, mentioning the supreme court ruling. If the gym was transparent and had told me he DID have their permission to be in there, I wouldn't have spoken to him. I wouldn't in fact, have used the changing room, so as not to have to submit to a man's presence there. Southwark does NOT inform women and girls that males are allowed into the female changing room. THAT is a major problem.

I 'became agitated' because he was filming in the female changing room (against the rules!) and accused me of raising a fist at him and called the cops on me! The cops attended and said 'stay away from each other, you will never agree." They did not see any behaviour on my part that warranted further action.

VeryTall's comment regarding 'an eyeful of genitals' is extremly offensive!

What the hell is wrong with you? No you dont have to be a bit too close or staring at strangers to be aware of naked men! This isn't typical female behaviour- we're much more likely to avert our gaze. I'd say this is more typical of male behaviour.

Regardless -men don't belong in female spaces.
Shame on any leisure centre that allows this

Actually I take this back, I can well believe from this thread that you could have got yourself banned from a gym for approaching a stranger and shouting at them.

Exactly, don’t laden male behaviours on to us.

We’re good thanks, for privacy, dignity and safety we’ll be fine with just women in the facilities.

Exactly which is utterly ridiculous, it needs to be female only.

You are part of the problem. You should have said - "approaching a man and asking him to leave".

What are saying that a 14-year-old girl who encounters a naked male in the female changing room (and isn’t aware that the gym’s policy allows this) should do?
Undress for swimming lessons? Scream in alarm? Leave quietly? Pretend like she’s NOT in the Twilight Zone? Ignore her survival instinct of fright, flight or fight? Or fawn?
what exactly would you recommend?

Exactly. I even couched it in “you’re probably a perfectly decent person, but this is the female changing room and a lot of women and girls aren’t comfortable with a male in here”. He started speaking loud, accusing me of not belonging, asking my immigration status (!), where I lived, etc.

Thanks for sharing your experience of what happened, Miranda, and for speaking up about it in public where possible. It must take a lot of courage. I'm so sorry you went through this. For what it's worth, even without the "help" of the BBC / Guardian etc., it's contributing to raising awareness about what's happening.

Posters like Tall do their bit, too, as even the best of their arguments are so weak that they highlight the issues almost as much as your own posts have (I mean, what is it with that delightful, "Men can attack you anyway so let's remove the safeguards that make it proportionately harder for them to do this"? Hm, where's that, "Congratulations, poster: you just made the silliest argument on the internet!" meme when you need it?

It's great that this thread is in AIBU and receiving a good bit of attention. You - and Tall etc. - will get a large number of readers even if they don't actively engage, which is just what's needed. There's growing recognition of the problems and attitudes behind that misleading little word "inclusion" at last, and threads like this accelerate this process.

Strange how the only place women are open and vocal about this issue is on an anonymous internet forum?

Its almost as if women have been doxxed, attacked, threatened, pilloried, sacked, cold-shouldered, othered, mocked, harassed, and arrested for speaking up, isnt it?

Women are talking about it, but mostly not in public. And if nobody in your life talks about it with you, there may be reasons.

(Responding to the quoted post!)

Thank you so much for the support. It has been a bit of a nightmare. I joined another gym, but it's a lot farther from home, so I go approx one time a week, instead of 4-5. It's affecting my fitness, not to mention my nerves!
And yes, i don't understand people making it EASIER for men to get into female spaces. We don't want ANY men there, even if they are 'nice guys'. Who can tell?

And my example of a 14-year-old girl walking in to find a naked man drying off is the end result of policies like this. They don't say men can go in IF they don't change clothes and shower, or IF they don't look at women drying off or changing clothes. If they allow men into female changing rooms, they are free to behave as any woman does: shower, towel off, change clothes, etc.

And, as you say, this is NOT inclusive policy. I said to the council. This is not 'welcoming', 'inclusive' or 'fair'. Women (once they find out about the policy, or see a man in the female changing room) are hiding, avoiding, and leaving Southwark gyms.

BECAUSE, Southwark is prioritising the wishes of men over the rights, safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls. That's what it all boils down to. This is not progressive.

Who covered it? I was interviewed by the Telegraph, then went on GB News. I haven't been interviewed by anyone else.

Are you implying that I am not the person who organised the protest at the Elephant? Not sure how to convince you. Should I post screen grabs of my email chains with Southwark Council, trying to get a clear answer on what their actual policy is? I have a meeting with them later this month on the appeal of my ban. But, think whatever you want. You still haven't answered my question: what is a 14-year-old girl 'supposed' to do if she walks into a female changing room and there's a man drying off his private parts? Any advice for her? Look away? "Be kind"?

No, I said after seeing post after post from you can I can well imagine you might be the women in the story being banned for (according to what I read online) approaching and shouting at a stranger who was clothed and washing their hands in a sink.
I know quite a few people who are trans through the LGBTQ scene and I don't know any who would behave as indiscretely as you or others on here do. Do you usually get your bits out and wave them around at people in changing rooms? Do you frequent places where this is a thing? If not why do you think anyone else would, especially someone who is already likely to be fearful of drawing attention to themselves.

I know you're not going to agree with me and probably chalk me up as some woman hating cool girl. I just think the things you post have no bearing in reality. You seem to think that anyone who is trans is some sort of bizarre caricature, who is threat to any woman. It's not borne out in reality, in lived experience or in the stats on offenders. I said it right at the start of the thread, if a man wants to attack a woman he's not going to worry about putting on a dress and finding a women's toilets first.

We are not setting the bar at outright sexual assault! Dignity and privacy matter too. If society did not believe that these are important, there would be no women's facilities at all, it would all be mixed sex. And it isn't.

In fact, trans women using the ladies at a managed leisure centre are doing so for their own reasons, to do with affirmation and personal preferences. I don't for one minute believe they are going to be beaten up by the male users in the gents.

So if we exclude a trans person getting beaten up anywhere, or beating up anyone else, what you are left with is privacy and dignity on one side and affirmation and personal preferences on the other.

And you choose the latter as being more important. Women's rights to privacy and dignity don't matter to you as long as the man gets his wishes affirmed.

I'm confused by the "not borne out in... the stats on offenders". The UK MOJ stats regarding sexual offending certainly seem to support our concerns, and these patterns are reflected across a number of other nations where such stats are recorded. In other places and contexts, it's harder to get to the bottom of what's happening (eg. Canada recording male crimes as committed by a female if the male identifies as such, and the UK not even recognising such a thing as hate crime on the basis of sex - I think it's been suggested that this is because the police and justice systems would simply collapse under the weight if this were to be changed, although this may be apocryphal). Anyway, could you elaborate on the stats to which you're referring?

Similarly, do you honestly believe that, in the two situations below, there is no difference in risk levels?

1. A situation in which it's understood that males may enter women-only spaces if they claim a female gender identity, meaning that no one (the males outside who see them enter, the females inside with them) is alert to their entry, or feels able to react or challenge them.

2. A situation in which it's seen as unacceptable for males to enter women-only spaces regardless of their self-perception, meaning that everyone (the males outside who see them enter, the females inside with them) recognises that a male who does this is almost certainly up to no good and feels a moral responsibility to act accordingly with some urgency (eg. raise the alarm / challenge them).

Both questions above prompted by your words: what's "borne out by reality, in lived experience, or in the stats on offenders".

(I would, by the way, agree entirely with what you point out isn't borne out by reality: as you say, the idea that a man who "wants to attack a woman" is "going to worry about putting on a dress and finding a women's toilets first" is the stuff of cartoonish school debate!)

Actually, on brief reflection and to be entirely accurate - and respectful to the victims - there is some damning evidence of this scenario or similar happening with enough frequency to be "a thing" (eg. Katie Dolatowski's attack on a girl, the man who police agreed was dressed up as a woman because girls were more likely to get into a car with him, the peeping Tom in women's loos who when caught out professed a female gender identity...) But your framing above - that men don't "need" to do this, or "worry about it" - is, I think we agree, so patently absurd as to be irrelevant.

240 odd posts in, and the ‘if a man wants to attack you he doesn’t need to put a dress on’ is STILL getting spun out. It’s been addressed. Numerous times. It’s not a trans issue, it’s a man issue. Trans women are men.

We get it, you have little to no argument as to why women should give up their rights to single sex spaces and sports, but at least have the decency to read the replies, or bow out. It’s getting painful to watch.

And for the love of God, don’t bang on about reality when trans people can’t accept theirs.