to ask what to do about a 9 yo who can't deal with losing?

[nomoremsniceperson]

Posting here for traffic as every time I've posted a thread somewhere else responses are very limited.

DS (9) is a lovely, loving, cheerful little boy. He's great with smaller children and babies, loves animals, very kind and accepting, he's well-liked and does well at school, quite stoical with any sort of pain or accidents, in many ways just socially/emotionally very well-adjusted. He also loves DD (11) fiercely and sometimes they play really well together. He can set boundaries and is polite, sweet, has a lot of empathy. In general just a really lovely little boy.

However, his sibling rivalry with DD is also pretty fierce (which I know is common) and there are some blazing rows which get out of hand, especially when we play games and his sister wins (but even if anyone else wins it can happen). His voice gets very high and almost panicky, as if his nervous system is completely overloaded. He becomes highly sensitive and completely, almost comically unreasonable (except there is no opportunity to find humour in the situation as it's always very stressful). He starts throwing things and screaming. Whether we tell him gently or forcefully that this behaviour is unacceptable, his behaviour only gets worse and I can see that he becomes incredibly distressed, to the point where even attempting to offer comfort triggers more agitation. We impose consequences like banning the game that caused issues, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference. I keep telling his sister he'll improve but he's been stuck at this level for years now.

The main thing that worries me is that when I try later to quietly talk to him about his behaviour, he deflects and says it's everyone else's fault. He cannot seem to reflect at all, he just flips out and goes straight back into fight or flight mode. He also has a victim mindset of being the one the rest of the family are all against. I worry this will impact on his ability to take accountability and on his sense of belonging to the family.

The nursery he was at thought he was possibly ND but an evaluation revealed it turned out he had a significantly higher than normal IQ. This isn't a brag, just to give context as higher IQ can cause children to have exaggerated responses to stress and social difficulties.

Will he grow out of this? Did anyone experience a similar situation which resolved? What helped? What made it worse? Am I expecting too much of a 9 year old boy? Is this just normal?

Any advice/help would be really appreciated :)

Thats challenging.
Have you tried taking it down to its absolute basics. Say over a meal..
Everybody rolls a dice once. Highest score wins. Then stop.
So there is no investment of time or effort on anybody's part no discussion and no prize?
Draws are just draws.. next day lowest score wins
Next day everybody with even numbers..

Then next day everybody splits a pack of cards. And so on. So it desensitises the issue.

If thats ok then you could do it with really really lame prizes. Like the winner gets to hold a spoon. Or say the word "blibble" or similar.
Next day the loser holds the spoon...

You could also do "games" where the outcome isnt fixed. So everybody throws a dice. Then you look in a previously sealed envelope to see if anybody got the number in there.

Not something that hes had to invest time and thinking into. No skill. Just sometimes winning sometimes not.

Aim towards games like snakes and ladders after a couple of months or so. Where they are short and luck only. ?

Went through similar with mine. Had to stop any competitive games for a while and eventually grew out of it

This sounds silly, but could you sit down as a family and watch something like the Paddington movie together? It's a good opportunity to laugh/discuss/empathise with people getting things right/wrong/winning/losing etc. Just a thought.

My DS is similar just about to turn 10 and has ADHD. We’re trying to desensitise him to losing like explained above. He has got better but I think a lot of it is age and maturity.

I think set clear expectations before the game starts ie ‘Ds we are going to play this game, if I see any silly behaviour over you not winning the game will finish and you will not be allowed to play this game with us in future.’

Dyou make him apologise to the rest of the family after an episode?

I think id talk to him a lot about managing big emotions like anger, the film Inside Out which shows what happens when one emotion takes over might be a good conversation starter.

Otherwise he’s not allowed to play family games 🤷‍♀️

One thing we found helpful was role modelling - so when I lost a game playing with him, I might at the end of it say "that was disappointing and I feel a bit sad about losing. Would give me a hug?" To show a way of dealing with it and also validating that it is ok to feel like that. It's just not ok to scream and shout about it.

Thanks, all good suggestions here, and I appreciate them all. @yikesss it is especially reassuring to hear kids grow out of it.

@Girliefriendlikespuppies we don't make him apologise as I think it would make him feel very ashamed and would trigger the stress response anew. (Sometimes he does apologise spontaneously to his sister and goes to hug her.) So much of his behaviour in these instances seems to stem from shame. When he was a toddler he began to have these huge outbursts that really triggered DH, who is a wonderful father in most respects but tended to yell at him angrily in response, which I found unhelpful. I wonder if that had an impact on his ability to regulate his emotions, and on his self-esteem in these situations. DH has since made a big effort to react calmly but maybe the damage has been done. Or maybe that's unrelated and this is just his personality? I don't know.

@665theneighborofthebeast I like the idea of desensitising him to loss. I've thought about giving some sort of small prize to the loser, but only if they are able to lose graciously.. like a few coins for the piggy bank, or a bonbon or something. He definitely seems to respond better to rewards than threats, although consequences do help.

I'd sit him down before any game and tell him sternly that if he doesn't win, that's FINE. No one gets to win every single time and any loss of temper, screaming or throwing things will result in a VERY harsh punishment because he is far too old to behave like that and you will no longer tolerate him throwing tantrums like a toddler.

Pick something that will make him think twice. Games console removed for a long period of time. Removal from a trip or party he is looking forward to.

Make it absolutely crystal clear how bad the behaviour is, you're fed up and that you WILL follow through on the consequence. Then do follow through. Never threaten what you aren't willing to carry out and always go through with it.

What his attitude going into the game? If he finds losing so stressful is he keen to play them at all? Or do you think he's just going along with the suggestion of the board game because he's kind/easy going/polite generally?

It sounds like just not playing this kind of game would be a first step in helping a child who finds it so upsetting/stressful. Find a different family activity to do, something creative or a game where it's you (as a team) against the game.

My ds went through similar but add in cheating at the game in order not to lose. We told him that nobody wants to play with someone like that and that we wouldn't either. He got much better.

Banning the fans because he kicks off about losing is just pandering abd giving in to him. Everyone is a loser sometimes, he needs the opportunities to learn that.

Does he do any sports/ competitive activities out of school?

I'm not sure why the fact he has a high IQ has made you think he can't be ND? Lots of ND people have a high IQ - it's really common!

I agree completely with @Balloonhearts , and would go one step further by saying that you seem (from your op) to be vastly over analysing the situation. I understand why, because we are all told now that all feelings had by children need to be validated with endless discussion and negotiation, but sometimes children need to be told by their parent that a particular behaviour is wrong, end of. No discussion needed. He sounds bright enough to understand this entirely.

I think you've got some great ideas above but one to add into the mix might be a co-operative game so that some games that you.play are a team effort, and all of you win or loose. So that he still gets the experience of a loss but it's not compared to anyone else's win - he might be able to manage that better first if it' s a shame based response.

One such game we had was a disney game called i found it, but that might be a little young.

I've thought about giving some sort of small prize to the loser, but only if they are able to lose graciously.. like a few coins for the piggy bank, or a bonbon or something.

I think that would be a mistake. In life not everything goes our way and bringing him up to think that even if he loses he will still 'win' something sets him up for unrealistic expectations. Besides, if it is shame at not being good enough to win it wouldn't necessarily help.

I'd suggest you start with coin tossing where he cannot possibly interpret the outcome as anything but luck (even with the dice he could try to find a way to say it's about how you throw it or something). So you toss and he says heads or tails, then he tosses and you guess etc... It'll come out at something near 50/50. It's not about not being good enough.

But I think you do have to be calm but firm with him in your talks. Letting it slide because of his reaction won't do him any favours.

I wouldn’t ban games as thats not fair on others. I would also make him say sorry because he’s going to have to learn to do that. If he can’t apologise that’s going to have a huge effect on his relationships as he gets older. He needs to take responsibility. He might feel upset but that’s life.

He also needs to learn to loose or what will happen at school and with friends. Especially getting older playing sport etc I’d think of it for preparing for the future.

Id do some of the suggestions above like short games and low ball stakes so he gets used to loosing and realising it’s not that big of a thing. Over and over. Sometimes he’ll win sometimes he’ll loose.

Does he also have any concept of cheering on someone else?

That game is great! 9 year old could definitely play

I don’t think giving a prize to the loser is helpful, that’s rewarding his poor behaviour. My sister’s son was like this from a very young age. He once bit the dog because it beat him in a race back to the house. He was about 4. He’s always been competitive and it caused such angst because you knew he’d kick off. They used to do the reward thing but it made him worse. Turns out he has ADHD and dyslexia. Diagnosed in teens. Probably has a high IQ. He’s still enormously competitive but it toned down as he got older. Your son needs to learn that losing is a part of life. And your daughter needs to see that there are consequences and you don’t kowtow to this behaviour.

We have a rule, the winner packs away the game. Also if we, the adults are losing we laugh about it saying we are so unlucky today etc - demonstrating how to have fun while losing and not making it a big deal. Also sometimes allowing the losers to carry on the game and complete it works well for some games.

I like to suggestion about teeny tiny “games” so it is normal to win and lose but doesn’t matter.

I think it’s really wrong that he doesn’t have to apologise when he’s been horrible, particularly to his sister. We all find saying sorry hard, and shame is a big part of that. It is also a big part of preventing us from repeating the action.

Tbh, it sounds to me like you don’t really think he is responsible for his behaviour. You question if it’s because he’s got a high IQ, maybe ND or possibly because DH shouted at him occasionally. Maybe he’s just making poor choices because he gets away with it?

How does he deal with competitive situations at school?

So, at school or with friends he never has a problem with losing. He plays sports, football, he does Judo, he plays on the Nintendo with friends - no issue. If we play cards in a big group with another family - no issue. As soon as it's just us four though, things change.

To me it feels like an issue with how he feels about his place in the family, and how he feels like he's always playing catch-up with his sister.. His sister is especially mature and capable for her age and I think he compares himself to her. An example - one morning she got up and wanted to make pancakes. Aware that there would be drama if she baked without him, she asked him if he wanted to help. He responded yes but then immediately started reading a comic and didn't come when called. So we started making pancakes without him.

Cue a total flip-out when he saw we had started without him. I sent him to his room and told him that he was being completely unreasonable, of course. But this just escalated things and he was so upset after that, so completely inconsolable... he told me he feels the family is me, DH and DD and he is on the outside and not really a part of it. I honestly don't know how to remedy that as harsh words seem to deepen his conviction, even comforting him in such a situation makes him angry. It's very heartbreaking to hear he doesn't feel like he's fully part of the family even though we all cherish him.

Well, he doesn't really get away with it. He's frequently told his behaviour is not acceptable, or he gets consequences like a week without the Switch or a ban on TV. He absolutely understand the clear message that we don't like or condone his behaviour - that's partly what causes the flip-outs.

My middle son was/is very competitive and a poor loser when he was younger. What worked for him was getting him involved in team sports. He played on a football team and had to learn to lose gracefully. I think the peer pressure of not wanting to look like a stroppy baby in front of his friends! He learned to concede that the other team won because they played better on that occasion and understand that sometimes it's just a case of having a bit of luck on your side too. We played lots of card games when they were young and there's a lot of luck involved - sometimes you just don't have the cards!