to ask what to do about a 9 yo who can't deal with losing?

[nomoremsniceperson]

Posting here for traffic as every time I've posted a thread somewhere else responses are very limited.

DS (9) is a lovely, loving, cheerful little boy. He's great with smaller children and babies, loves animals, very kind and accepting, he's well-liked and does well at school, quite stoical with any sort of pain or accidents, in many ways just socially/emotionally very well-adjusted. He also loves DD (11) fiercely and sometimes they play really well together. He can set boundaries and is polite, sweet, has a lot of empathy. In general just a really lovely little boy.

However, his sibling rivalry with DD is also pretty fierce (which I know is common) and there are some blazing rows which get out of hand, especially when we play games and his sister wins (but even if anyone else wins it can happen). His voice gets very high and almost panicky, as if his nervous system is completely overloaded. He becomes highly sensitive and completely, almost comically unreasonable (except there is no opportunity to find humour in the situation as it's always very stressful). He starts throwing things and screaming. Whether we tell him gently or forcefully that this behaviour is unacceptable, his behaviour only gets worse and I can see that he becomes incredibly distressed, to the point where even attempting to offer comfort triggers more agitation. We impose consequences like banning the game that caused issues, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference. I keep telling his sister he'll improve but he's been stuck at this level for years now.

The main thing that worries me is that when I try later to quietly talk to him about his behaviour, he deflects and says it's everyone else's fault. He cannot seem to reflect at all, he just flips out and goes straight back into fight or flight mode. He also has a victim mindset of being the one the rest of the family are all against. I worry this will impact on his ability to take accountability and on his sense of belonging to the family.

The nursery he was at thought he was possibly ND but an evaluation revealed it turned out he had a significantly higher than normal IQ. This isn't a brag, just to give context as higher IQ can cause children to have exaggerated responses to stress and social difficulties.

Will he grow out of this? Did anyone experience a similar situation which resolved? What helped? What made it worse? Am I expecting too much of a 9 year old boy? Is this just normal?

Any advice/help would be really appreciated :)

I agree - we were given a game called Cauldron Quest where you have to work together to defeat the evil wizard. My not-very-good-loser kids loved it, but they were a bit younger than the OP’s DS, around 6/7. Maybe OP could look up that game to see if there are any aimed at older children?

It’s interesting to see from the replies - but unsurprising perhaps - that it tends to be mainly boys who react this way.

My daughter used to be like this, she was regularly banned from playing games with us! She just completely grew out of it

Duplicate post

In that situation, did you point out that if he had come when he was called he would have been fully part of this particular family activity - therefore the only person who excluded him was him? How did he/would he react?

I’d suggest following up again on the ND angle. Sometimes this type of dysregulation that only happens in their safe environment can be an indicator.

my DS went through a similar phase at that age and was only diagnosed later while at university. It was hard to manage as he wouldn’t acknowledge he was doing anything “wrong” but with hindsight (a wonderful thing) I think he behaved like this at home only because he was managing his behaviour so tightly everywhere else.

You sound phenomenally sensible 🙂 Really good ideas.

I was just like this as a child. (Minus the high IQ!) I grew out of it by my teenage years. Now I’m not competitive at all. My parents just didn’t play family games with us because they knew it would end in tantrums. Currently going through it with 7 year old mini me 🤞

But the real question is did you grow up to abuse women and girls?

You say he has had an "evaluation" but was this a formal ND assessment? I have taught a child who presented like this and he was given an autism diagnosis eventually. Many autistic people have a high IQ.

My ds is nd but also very high iq (top 2 percent). I think bright children are normally not used to being in a position of failure/ worst at something so it feels quite brutal. I think it'd be good to get on top of it, as ultimately, one day people will be better than him, he might get lower results/meet someone objectively brighter. I'd start with some emotional regulation support - naming emotions (can he tell you when it happens/after, was he ashamed, sad, embarrassed?) If he can name it, he can manage it. Discuss breathing exercises, safe spaces he can run away to, a pillow he can punch etc.
Also, tricky with bright children, praise effort, kindness, commitment over and above any results. So don't say "you got 15/15 in maths well done" instead say "I know you tried really really hard to learn those times tables, what a fantastic effort" or "I'm so impressed with how you calmly communicated your disappointment" etc. I suspect he feels like he maybe has to always be good at stuff, or that being good at stuff really matters. Have discussions where you explain that actually, being good at stuff isn't what makes him great, it's his empathy, his humour, his gentleness.
I'd also discuss what good looks like, it's ok to FEEL those feelings, it's the behaviour that isn't ok. Then put rewards in place for what you want to see. As an example, when we play cards today, if you lose, I'd love to see you understand and share that you feel (embarrassed, ashamed, sad, disappointment) and then put in place your action of (going to a safe place like your room, doing your breathing exercise, writing it down in a journal, reading positive affirmations, listening to music etc etc). If you manage to do that, or try hard to do it, we will reward it with xyz. I think someone above said get him to practice losing regularly, which I think if you combined with this would work really well, as he can practice the techniques a lot.

Ridiculous demonisation of young boys.

It's perfectly normal for young children -boys and girls to find it difficult to lose - as stated by adults who were like this as children - you grow out of it.

To suggest if means OP's son will abuse women and children is hyperbolic and misandric.

I'd send him to his room to calm down every time he had one of these tantrums. Does he play any team games? That might help.

Co-operative games.

They’re a massive trend in the board game world at the moment, and it’s about all players working together to meet one objective.

I would use these as opportunities to refocus attention on “games as fun”. Similarly- go bowling as a family, but work together to break your record / hit X high score or whatever. Individual scores don’t matter.

If you collectively lose- that’s a shared disappointment. It will be interesting to see how he responds to that. (My guess would be - not as strongly).

What you don’t want to happen at 9, is for him to lose the sense joy in play- yet he’s obviously not emotionally mature enough to handle winning/ losing scenarios- for whatever reason. And taking an “immersion therapy” approach isn’t going to help anyone.

I would then use these positive gameplay experience- whether you win or lose as a family- as opportunities to open up conversation about fairness, gameplay, resilience etc. Don’t bash him over the head with it, but he’s clearly a bright lad, so will be able to make the connections.

I would then maybe progress to team gameplay- kids v grown ups, or 2 v 2, and see what happens when he loses, and so on.

I think I would do 2 things to try and get out of the spiral.

1. keep family games to the ones/types you know he can cope with.

2. keep 1:1 activities between you and your DS or DD separate. They get to choose their activity but not muscle in on each others. So in the pancake scenario you say to DS “DD wants to make pancakes for everyone, would you like some?” (this way he is still included) “after I’ve done this with DD is there something you would like to do ?”

I actually agree with a previous poster that I think he’s being quite manipulative of the family so any kick offs I’d be inclined to completely ignore. Don’t try to placate him, don’t tell him off or punish him, literally don’t even acknowledge what he is doing just walk away/carry on with what you are doing.

It probably will be hard at first but you need to persevere.

It doesn’t matter if he’s ND/high IQ etc tbh. Ultimately we have to try and distance ourselves and parent in a way that supports their development and ability to cope in society long term. So analysing his reaction is useful but could lead to over thinking.
You could ask school to support in encouraging more collaborative games where teams play rather then individuals. Or do some team building activities and work with him. Ultimately though he needs to understand that if he can’t manage his behaviour then games are off the agenda. Sometimes children do behave in a way which isn’t ideal, just like adults and we need to be clear it’s not acceptable and it will mean him losing out on good opportunities in the future. It’s good you are addressing because this won’t go down well in secondary school.

Your describing a number of ND traits, able to lose with friends outside of the home with no real reaction, unable to cope with losing at home, this is a sign of masking, at school he is copying behaviours, at home in his safe space he can unmask and be his true self.
The massive explosions and inability to communicate during them are what real meltdowns look like.
Covering his ears when you try and talk to him after the event, possible Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria, negative criticism can actually feel painful.
The inability to accept blame and deflect it to others is a ND trait, my ASD kid does it.
Easily distracted, daydreaming, forgetting.
The fact parents are/possibly ND, it's hereditary.
It can be harder to get a diagnosis when they are young as there may not be enough lived experience but I would be looking again in more detail at what you're describing.

Could you just "toddler" it. If he loses and kicks off just all go to another and continue playing without him til he calms down.

Just ignore it like any temper tantrum. Because for all your saying about overload and "inability to be accountable" if he can control his response with school friends its a behavioural choice.

Id tell him everytime we played, he will only win if he plays best or is luckiest. And anytime he kicked off id tell him he cant play anymore until he gets control of himself, wed keep playing and he could rejoin when he was ready.

I posted this on another thread today, but look at Peaceable Kingdom games. All cooperative. Gnomes in the Night is good fun. They have a few other titles too. Also Outfoxed and if he likes Minecraft, Heroes of the Village and Builders and Biomes are both cooperative games with some mild failure (so you succeed or fail v the game together, which might help embed the idea of not winning in a way that is more gentle and means he and his sister are working together).

A cooperative game is a good idea, if you need any suggestions Forbidden Island would be good for this age bracket (and older)

Feeling like an outsider and like
you dont fit in even with family could be a sign of
ND too.

I also have a child with a very high IQ (also not bragging, it brings A LOT of challenges). My DC HATES attention when they are upset about something. Literally trying to engage AT ALL will make it worse, telling off etc etc. What works for ours is that they have a space they can go to calm down. If they are able to have a short time to calm down privately, they are typically able to rationally talk about situations and things improve over time. Without that, we get really explosive behavior.

Ours unfortunately goes straight to saying they are "bad" if they lose but then also they are "bad" for having the big reaction. I think a lot of this stems from perfectionism which is really common in gifted kids.

I would highly recommend looking at the resources the Davidson Institute has, particularly around emotional intensity in gifted kids. Feel free to DM if it would be helpful.

I would recommend the book Siblings Without Rivalry - so does Mumsnet. It helped me immensely. If your DD can cope with losing outside the home it potentially stems from the way he wants to be perceived by you and your DH. I have two DDs and they were a fucking nightmare 😂 They’re close in age so neither ever wanted to lose. It wasn’t just at home though … pass the parcel…or any other party game they had to be warned that if they kicked off they would be going home. Both were diagnosed with ASD in their teens both HLP…I think that played into it. They have grown out of it but my sister predicted that I was raising the female equivalent of Frasier and Niles Crane when they were very young … she wasn’t too far off the mark 😂 their competitive spirit is managed … but really only slightly below the surface.

I have a lot of sympathy with you and the rest of your family. From what you say about your son’s ability to cope with loosing at sport then the issue is more about his perceived place in the family and his response to situations where he feels the loser. It is good that he presents better out and about obviously.
He will grow out of it but you can help this to happen. You need to tackle both family dynamics and his emotional response.
Both parents need to spend one on one time with both children. Find an interest you can share, an activity they enjoy. When you spend time as a four do something non competitive, maybe let each person take turns at picking what you do. Encourage your children to follow their own interests.
Model and encourage speaking about feelings and defining them. You and husband can provide learning opportunities when something goes wrong say ‘my phone ran out of charge while I was reading a message, it is really annoying, I am frustrated and would like to scream but I’m going to go for a walk’ or something similar.
We never used being sent to your room as a punishment, time out hadn’t really come in as an expression but we would suggest that my daughter went to her room to have a chance to chill out. Make sure his room has things in it he can use to help him release emotions and calm down. Maybe teach him or find help in teaching breathing or other calming techniques. If it works recognise this and praise him. Slow process but doable.