to ask what to do about a 9 yo who can't deal with losing?

[nomoremsniceperson]

Posting here for traffic as every time I've posted a thread somewhere else responses are very limited.

DS (9) is a lovely, loving, cheerful little boy. He's great with smaller children and babies, loves animals, very kind and accepting, he's well-liked and does well at school, quite stoical with any sort of pain or accidents, in many ways just socially/emotionally very well-adjusted. He also loves DD (11) fiercely and sometimes they play really well together. He can set boundaries and is polite, sweet, has a lot of empathy. In general just a really lovely little boy.

However, his sibling rivalry with DD is also pretty fierce (which I know is common) and there are some blazing rows which get out of hand, especially when we play games and his sister wins (but even if anyone else wins it can happen). His voice gets very high and almost panicky, as if his nervous system is completely overloaded. He becomes highly sensitive and completely, almost comically unreasonable (except there is no opportunity to find humour in the situation as it's always very stressful). He starts throwing things and screaming. Whether we tell him gently or forcefully that this behaviour is unacceptable, his behaviour only gets worse and I can see that he becomes incredibly distressed, to the point where even attempting to offer comfort triggers more agitation. We impose consequences like banning the game that caused issues, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference. I keep telling his sister he'll improve but he's been stuck at this level for years now.

The main thing that worries me is that when I try later to quietly talk to him about his behaviour, he deflects and says it's everyone else's fault. He cannot seem to reflect at all, he just flips out and goes straight back into fight or flight mode. He also has a victim mindset of being the one the rest of the family are all against. I worry this will impact on his ability to take accountability and on his sense of belonging to the family.

The nursery he was at thought he was possibly ND but an evaluation revealed it turned out he had a significantly higher than normal IQ. This isn't a brag, just to give context as higher IQ can cause children to have exaggerated responses to stress and social difficulties.

Will he grow out of this? Did anyone experience a similar situation which resolved? What helped? What made it worse? Am I expecting too much of a 9 year old boy? Is this just normal?

Any advice/help would be really appreciated :)

Is the behaviour limited to home or does he get angry and frustrated at school too? I’m sure they would have let you know by now if he was having extreme reactions.
Does he do the same for turn taking? Wanting to be first etc? You could have rotas for things like that. A visual would help with laminated names e.g. for being first to choose or sit in a certain place.
We used to have Friday “ family fun night” where we took turns choosing the activity e.g. game, film etc.
You could look at 5 point scale resources for emotional regulation. You can get themed ones online such as Dr Who or the Simpsons. Teach it’s ok to be angry or upset it’s how we deal with the emotion. He could learn to walk away and go somewhere quiet or his room. Teach calming breathing or counting to 10 in his head whilst clenching and unclenching fists by his sides.
There are some books that address this. I expect when calm he knows how he should behave but can’t transfer the skill.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Im-Not-Afraid-Losing-Anymore/dp/0648813312/ref=asc_df_0648813312?mcid=95bfcceeec503348a1181d791745e941&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697314918377&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2906300691807538579&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9195089&hvtargid=pla-930758645184&psc=1&hvocijid=2906300691807538579-0648813312-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sometimes-You-Win-Learn-Kids/dp/0316284084/ref=asc_df_0316284084?mcid=dfa5151cb77d37419216fa57a4b3879c&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697299255274&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2906300691807538579&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9195089&hvtargid=pla-451011135098&psc=1&hvocijid=2906300691807538579-0316284084-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1

Stop worrying about a root cause of his behaviour. What matters is he learns to deal with his feelings in a more appropriate way, whether he's ND or has a high IQ or its DH's fault or whatever.

It sounds a bit like he sees winning games as part if his identity, so struggles if he loses. Loads of DC that age have a very narrow definition of "who they are" , but its probably not really that healthy. Try more games of pure luck, one player games like Patience, and play things he's not good at - catch or juggling or Boppit or anything. When you or DH are losing, do the exaggerated "oh no!! Gah!! These cards are just so mean!" but jokingly. And tell him clearly "winning a game doesn't change who you are" and "we love you for YOU. It wouldn't matter if you stopped being good at maths, or liking blue, or supporting Manchester United".

Let him hear you praise his sister for achievements that might "tread on his toes". EG if he thinks he's "the academic one" then how does he deal with DD being praised for doing well at school?

But this just escalated things and he was so upset after that, so completely inconsolable... he told me he feels the family is me, DH and DD and he is on the outside and not really a part of it.

What examples does he give for feeling like this? Presumably this is coming from inside him, not based in reality.

This is probably worth unpacking with the help and support of a professional…… not feeling like part of the family is a heavy burden for a 9 year old and I think above the paygrade for most of us to chip in with ideas. I think too you sound like a wonderful, warm and thoughtful parent so its root cause is likely outside of ‘normal’ boyhood issues. Maybe a play therapist or even a psychologist could give some ideas as to how to make him feel more secure and then work back up to losing after. Sending a cuddle, if you’d like one

Please don't do this, you will have created a stressful situation before you've started.
The desensitisation approach is what I would recommend

Not making him apologise for poor behaviour towards his sister is a mistake and makes it seem like his feelings are the only ones that matter. You are teaching him to disregard his sister completely and that he can treat her however he likes with no consequences or accountability for it and that he only needs to apologise if he fancies it. You are basically teaching them both that boys matter more than girls. It might not be your intention but that’s going to be an underlying consequence of not making him take some responsibility for his bratty behaviour. He has anger issues. Get him in therapy before he becomes a young man who treats girls like shite and uses anger as a response to any slight.

Could you engineer some games so he is in a team with his sister

i think what you are describing with the sibling rivalry is pretty normal, we have incidents like that as well where one perceives an unfairness with treatment

My nephew was just like this! His competitiveness and fear of losing extended into everyday tasks and activities, eg if the children had been told to get ready for school, nephew would have a meltdown if his sister finished getting ready before him.

I can’t really remember how my DB and SIL dealt with it, but he did grow out of it. As a teenager now, he is still competitive but channels it into sport- he plays several sports at a high level.

DN is also very intelligent and likely ND (he is not diagnosed but there is a fair bit of diagnosed neurodivergence in the wider family)

so what about your DD? does that mean she never gets to play games with her parents because they are too busy tip-toeing around her brother?

I would be making him read a book or do something else and play games with her, to show him how it is done.

But i would also be making him apologise to his sister every time, and if that makes him feel bad? tough - if he doesn't want to feel bad he doesn't tip the game over because he lost.

(i hope it's not because he's losing to a girl?)

Can you play games in pairs so he doesn't feel like its him versus everyone else? Instead it would be (eg) him and dad together. Sounds like there is way more to this than losing at games.

[edited for typo]

I agree he should be reprimanded for bad behaviour but the tricky thing is he will perceive it as being his sisters fault that he is getting into trouble, you need to try to come up with ways to have them working together as a team to stop the rivalry

The non reaction elsewhere means it's not the losing in isolation that matters, it's his perception when he loses to his sister.

The pancakes example is bourne out of utter frustration at his own behaviour. Do you talk to him about being annoyed at his own actions which then escalate? I always try to give a "get out clause" if a blow up is about to (or is happening). In the pancakes example, it would have been a calm "we asked if you wanted to join in, you said yes but when we called you didn't come. You're ready to join in now so let's all make them together before you get frustrated with yourself". Name his feelings for him and give him the option to "come round" before a punishment is handed out.

i was the sister in this scenario. If anyone had tried to put me in a team with my little brother, i'd have left the room.

Have you explored ramifications of his high IQ and possible ND? Have a look at potential plus (charity) they have much advice. It’s really sad that he feels so on the outside of everything and clearly thinks that failure is a further risk to his place in the family. Poor bean!

Aware that there would be drama if she baked without him, she asked him if he wanted to help. He responded yes but then immediately started reading a comic and didn't come when called. So we started making pancakes without him.
Cue a total flip-out when he saw we had started without him.

Just read that back slowly from your dd's pov.
"I'd like to make pancakes. I love doing things just with Mum, but I know bro will kick off if I don't ask him, and then Mum will spend her time dealing with him and that'll be worse. So I'll ask him to join me, I suppose.
he said he does want to, so I've told Mum, but he's not coming. Mum's checked twice and we're just hanging around waiting for him to decide when he's coming.
Oh good, Mum's decided that we'll start and he can join us when he's ready.
<Sigh> Then he realised we'd started and is kicking up. Mum's now in a mood and it's spoilt. I wish I could just spend time with Mum without him getting all the attention."

Sounds like he has the family under control. I suspect he knew full well that you were waiting and expected you to just wait around until he could stroll in and start at his leisure. When you didn't do what he wanted his had a tantrum and spoilt it.

Sorry, but I had a brother like this (he'll now admit it) and family things were just like this. I felt lowest priority because either I had to ask him to join in and he controlled it by things like keeping everyone waiting or he had a strop and spoilt it that way.
Mum would have told you that she was being totally fair - but I was always the one who compromised.

So this isn't that he can't deal with losing - clearly he can in sport/at school.

It's about his relationship with his sister and how he feels about constantly coming second to her. He's second in his birth position and he may feel (I'm sure incorrectly) second in how you feel about him. These feelings don't need to be rational - but they can be real to him.

Siblings without rivalry (Faber & Mazlish) is quite good at this - it's really important that you don't compare him with his sister - you describe her as 'extra mature' thus indicating that you feel he is immature - which is very likely to be true as he's younger, male and a different personality.

No one likes to feel lesser or a failure. You need to focus on what he does well and reinforce that you value who he is.

I'm sorry to say, but my 18yo hasn't grown out of this yet.

Just out of interest, are other people's "sensitive losers" exceptionally good at maths? Mine is. Wondering if it's something to do with that type of mind. Competitive outcomes can't be predicted due to the human element. I've often wondered if his logic favouring brain just can't cope with outcomes that are so random. I'm not explaining this very well, sorry. Hope the gist of what I mean comes across.

I agree with this.
If he's fine losing at school, and losing among friends, but has massive reactions in an intimate family setting then this is where the problem lies.
As you've already guessed OP it's not a problem about losing, its a problem about his feelings about his place in the family.

Your son really seems to be explaining to you why he gets upset but it's really tough to figure out how to support him in adjusting his thinking.
It maybe worth reading there's still no such thing as naughty by Kate Silverstone or following her on Instagram. She is brilliant.
Some therapy might also help unpick this situation as well, as it's such a specific set of dynamics that set him off.
Also sympathise as have very similar set up at home too......

How does your DD feel about this? I feel really sorry for her. She's already learning that a boy's needs and moods must be placated.

The outcomes are still random when he wins, so I guess he's just a sore loser.

Another poster mentioned family therapy, and actually, I think this is what you might need. Because he can cope with losing in general, so it's not about him "learning to lose", he is just struggling with losing (and losing face?) within his family.

Ah so its very clearly family/sister related.
Do you and your DH get much one on one time with each of the kids individually? Have there been other signs of jealousy?

I have to say, I read it like this too. He quite clearly doesn’t have any issues at school or with friends or wider family members, he knows right from wrong, that he shouldn’t be kicking off and having major tantrums. It’s almost as if there’s some kind of resentment towards his sister. All siblings have some kind of rivalry but I do wonder if this needs some kind of professional input to unpick what’s really going off here.

I’d start to wonder what sort of male role models he sees close to him? Does he mind if any other member of the family wins or is it only losing to his sister that is the problem?

But from your description of him losing at a board game - in my family he’d be sent/taken to his room to calm down. Removed from the situation if he couldn’t handle the perfectly normal situation of losing a game.