Taking 3 year old daughter into Men’s Toilets

[dadtobe22]

I just wanted a sense check here as had a horrible experience earlier.

I’m looking after my 3 year old daughter today. Took her to the zoo this morning and headed to a Toby Carvery for lunch. We were having a lovely day.

On arrival I needed to use the toilet so popped upstairs to the gents and I stood at the end urinal and told my 3 year old daughter to stand next to me by the wall.

A bloke walked in and started huffing and puffing and had a massive pop at me asking if I had “no sense” bringing a little girl into the men’s toilets. I explained I was looking after her on my own today, I couldn’t take her into the women’s and I wasn’t prepared to leave her outside.

At this point he started squaring up to me telling me I was wrong. If I’d stood up to him any further he’d have probably gone for me. I was just thinking about keeping myself and my daughter safe at this point.

I walked away and walked back down towards the restaurant. I go to sit down with my daughter and he makes a menacing bee line for me, raising his voice in the whole restaurant telling me I was wrong and how I’d made him feel uncomfortable. He also started making protestations to staff. He seemed really triggered.

Again I just walked away and took a seat in a quiet corner of the bar away from the main restaurant.

The staff were sympathetic in tone but didn’t offer any explicit support (probably because they were a bit scared of this mad bloke which I
don't blame them for. I think they were just trying to keep the peace).

Was I unreasonable to take my 3 year old daughter into the men’s toilets? I’ve been doing this since she was born and have never had a problem or complaint. I would get it if she was 8 and could wait outside by herself but she’s 3?!

It’s definitely made me re think what I do in the future in this situation.

Hi @dadtobe22 all the ridiculous posters who say you should have used the disabled toilet; they will be the first to complain when a non-disabled person uses them!
Continue to use your common sense and keep doing what you do; do not let one crazy man make you question your choices for you and your daughter! Many women on mumsnet are angry man-haters!!

How on earth is a man using a urinal in any way comparable with a woman - or a man - sitting on a toilet without the cubicle door closed?

Do an experiment: put a row of open, door-less cubicles in a women's toilet and see how many women happily use them in the space of a whole week. The answer will be zero.

It's already standard for men's toilets to have a row of urinals and the vast majority of men use them without a moment's thought - as they don't consider the fabric of the back of their coat/shirt and trousers to be something private that they object to a passing stranger (adult or child) seeing.

And if there were a paedophile there, he would presumably have seen any number of children in the public place outside before going into the toilets, whom he could be thinking about in his filthy vile mind as he 'reacted'. He could just as easily go into the cubicle to do it. The same could be true of a paedophile who is attracted to young boys, if other men took their young sons in with them.

The problem is 100% the paedophile - and the child would not be at risk as they have their dad right there to protect them - not people using public toilets for the mundane reason that they need the toilet or they are little and need to go/stay with their parent.

People seem to forget a child has eyes. See how this goes when the child starts telling her nursery workers she sees Daddy's penis and other men's penises and starts drawing what she sees.

It goes:

'Where did you see this?'

'In the toilet when I was out for dinner with Daddy'.

Check with Dad 'yes I had to take her to the loo with me as there was no one else with us'.

End of story.

Context is everything, once they have the context, its fine and chances of her even seeing any penis is remote, because blokes don't actually thwack out the whole pork sword to take a leak, and most of what is out is obscured by their hand.

Seeing a penis is not a safeguarding red flag all by itself - the context is very important!

This is a territory you would want to get into?

Of course it's ok to take her as you have no choice but I don't think you should have left her by the urinal. I think you should have taken her into a cubicle

I would expect most children to have seen their father's penis at some point.

Thankfully that wouldn't happen, owing to the way urinals are positioned on walls and the biology of the males who use them.

The same child is far more likely to see her mum's vulva, when she takes her into the toilets with her, than she is her dad's (or any man's) penis when they're using a urinal in the same room as her.

Imagine how horrified the nursery will be when she tells them that she saw her mum's privates on many occasions when she went to the public toilets with her - not to mention those of all the other ladies that could be seen by anybody with x-ray vision capable of seeing through wooden walls and doors (the equivalent of the men's backs at the urinals).

If you know of a nursery that considers a parent taking their young child to the toilet with them a red flag and a safeguarding issue, please do ask them what alternative they would recommend (and "say a magic spell that stops either parent or child ever needing the toilet when away from their own home" is not acceptable).

At the age of 3, even if she did magically see one or more penises, children of her age don't have the faintest notion of sex (other than as in are you a boy or a girl) on their radar.

To them, they would just understand (after being simply told) that it's a pipe that men and boys have that lets them wee standing up. They would likely giggle - because wee and poo and bums and trumps etc. are funny at that age - and think no more about it.

And other men's?

Not what Scotland NHS say

But why would they see other men’s? I don’t know much about men’s toilets but I am pretty sure generally men don’t run around waving their penis! They simply stand at the urinal (where all you will see is the back of a row of men) and then leave.

People obviously have different views of this. My personal choice is I would not expose a three year old to this. I prefer to err on the side of caution. Others choose their own way.

I don't get the point you're making? Nobody is remotely suggesting that the men should actively show their penises to children after having a wee.

The statement about encouraging children to put their pants on straightaway is, as they say, because of childish curiosity. Grown men using a urinal don't have this - they just want to have a wee, discreetly adjust themselves, leave the urinal and get on with their day. Do you know many women who fling open cubicle doors with their bits on show, before having adjusted their clothing back to normal?

And in the event that there is a paedophile or other bad man in there, the child's father is also there to protect them - not to mention likely other good men who would also step in and help/raise the alarm if needed.

Naturally, if you want to avoid your children ever seeing the back of a man's clothed body, you have every right to ensure this.

@AntiqueBabyLoanSmurf you are surmising as to what can be seen as I am - you don't know what can be seen nor do I but I would rather do anything to protect a child and err on the side of caution.

So would you prefer fathers don’t take their daughters out unattended, or that they wet themselves?

Of course you were right. Until she's old enough to be left outside on her own (and that would be never with that mad bloke about) she goes into the toilet with the parent she's with. This can be the men's up to the age of 8. That is the rules for pool changing rooms. I would expect the staff to back you up but safety first if the man was being menacing. What a horrible experience for you.

Naked men? What on earth do you think goes on at urinals?

A lot of children of both sexes go swimming with their dads and will therefore get changed in the men’s changing room. Presumably they sometimes see a naked man there. As my sons will occasionally catch a glimpse of a naked woman in the women’s changing rooms. I don’t personally think this in itself does any harm to children in a context where it’s appropriate for people to be undressing and accompanied by a parent.

Men take their penises out to pee?

Use the family toilet or the disabled one. In an emergency I have to use a disabled / accessible toilet due to a gastro condition and I have no qualms about either situation.

No. Of course it's fine ( assuming you are a man). I always took my son into the female toilets and no one complained.

Not unreasonable but maybe better to use a cubicle and ask her to look away / face the door? At least there's no risk then if seeing something they shouldn't...

That's perfectly fine. A 3 year old is totally normal in the opposite sex toilet when accompanied by a parent. The separation is intended to give opposite sex adults privacy from each other.

Not entirely sure what a family toilet is. I’ve got a disabled child and do have an issue with disabled toilets being used for this purpose - being a parent isn’t a disability.

I would take my son into the ladies with me if alone, as he can’t be left unattended and I’m not disabled.