To be confused by 'high earners' complaining about taxes?

[tutuland]

So high earners pay lots of tax. The top 20% pay for 70% or whatever the numbers are.

But (beyond printing more money) isn't the money there high income people make just coming from the paying public? No matter who you work for, your company's profit is just an accumulation of normal people paying for things.

So ultimately, isn't it all our money anyway? Just beacuse the game is rigged and you get paid 400K for management whatever, it doesn't mean you're more deserving of that money than anyone.

What exactly is he skilled in? Powerpoint and excel.

He's cleverly worked himself up the capitalism ladder. He works long hours because he's chosen to do so for lots of money. Lots of people work long intense hours, with specialised knowledge, without the same amount of money.

Deserve, he does not.

So, if a person on benefits is buying a product from (putting money in the pockets of) a person who is a high earner thus paying a higher rate of tax, could it not be argued that the person selling is actually paying for those goods due to their tax contributions? Being that the person buying the product is buying it using benefit money provided by the higher earner?

The trouble is it's cripplingly expensive to provide all possible treatment to everybody. When the NHS was started most treatments were simple and inexpensive, now the sky's the limit, heart ops, brain ops, gene therapy, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, MRI scans, IVF, etc, etc, people expect more and more and a free at point of use health service gets over whelmed by demand, it's a bottomless pit of expense.

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That's about the same as Universal Credit recipients. But people have no sympathy if they say they don't want to increase their hours for the same reason.

How is that fair? Employers get their cash from the paying public generally. Sure this is the current model of civilisation we have to live within- but how on earth is that fair.

I'd respect you lot if you said "I've learned to play the capitalism game really well and I want to enjoy my money. I don't want to think about other people and their needs".

It's the pretending that unpalatable.

‘ it doesn't mean you're more deserving of that money than anyone.’
bullshit. My brother is a neurosurgeon, he’s more deserving of the money than I an office work. And he’s more deserving of it than - gasp! - a nurse.

I think you may be missing the point of the thread. Rarely a day goes by without some arrogant individual claiming to be carrying society on their back because they've chosen to work in a well paid sector. This thread is offering a new perspective. The idea is that we discuss that, not parrot the same tired old thing we hear on the daily.

If it is so easy, why aren't you a high earner?

Former higher earner here, paid taxes all
my life. Live in London, partner on £45k , my contract ended a few months ago we don’t qualify for any support, not even JSA because I was self employed and enough class one NI contributions.
The systems tax pay for don’t support everybody fairly.

You keep assuming that by doing business with the general public, private businesses are somehow owned by their customers rather than their actual owners. I find this a bit bizarre.

Databases, coding and IT systems. Knows python, the c languages, JavaScript and SQL. He's a very intelligent and hard working man.

My DH made his choices and delivered value successfully. The company wants to pay him this much, and he accepts. Perfectly voluntary. He deserves every penny. He's also be allowed to move and relocate to 0% income tax destinations. Who knows we might leave and be able to keep all our income. Then no tax for this government.

So ultimately, isn't it all our money anyway?

So is your money my money as well, or is that only my money is our money?

I am a high earner, not in the UK but for a similar system with similar problematics. I work abroad most of the time but I am taxed in my home country (EU).

I used to not begrudge paying higher taxes but it has changed for a variety of reasons.

1- a lot of my salary goes into taxes but I am actually getting nothing for it.

Because I work abroad and don’t actually live back home most of the time, I am not actually entitled to or eligible for anything I pay for and don’t even get access to unemployment etc… while for me if I am still eligible to pay taxes in my country despite working abroad I should be able to get access to those benefits despite living abroad.

2- Even if I did live back home, being a higher earner still means you aren’t eligible for most of the stuff lower earner have access to be it help for your kids studies etc… and there is a big gap between someone being an extremely high earner who can afford to go private on everything (education/health etc…) than someone barely being over the threshold and being pretty much punished for earning 1k more than their peer. I think paying so much into the system should bring some positive for higher earner also, not just benefit everyone else (including those who will never pay a cent into the system) while cutting off those who part with most of their salary.

3- The system itself seems to be collapsing, I am 30 and it seems very unlikely that people my age will have a livable retirement pot (will retiring even be a thing?), the health system is pretty much waiting for you to die in between two specialist appointments because waiting 6 months+ to see a cardiologist or any other specialist is apparently completely appropriate, housing has become completely unaffordable to most people my age, the cost of living is through the roof while salaries don’t follow and taxes are high.

I mean I am struggling to see what I am paying for actually.

4- I am throughly pissed that one of my brothers who is a year younger than me & perfectly able and capable of working is choosing not to work (he will be 29 soon and has pretty much worked) yet getting monthly benefits and pretty much as access to every help available to people with no to little resources. I am completely fine with people who can’t work or are temporarily not working for reason beyond their control to have access to all the help and benefits they need but I find it infuriating that the current system actually encourage people to either not work, work less or purposely work under certain threshold in order to get as much as possible without paying into the system or paying into it as little as possible.

I would feel better about paying the taxes I pay when people like my brother are either forced to work or force to lose all help and benefits.

As for my salary and whether I deserve it more than others. Not really I mean we are all humans and I don’t think that there is a real way to justify someone being paid 10/100/1000x more than someone else. Though yes I would say some skilled jobs deserve a higher pay grade, I think physical jobs should be paid more and in my case my salary is due to the number of hours I work. Most people wouldn’t want to work the hours I work or not see their home and loved ones for weeks or months at a time. So my salary stems from that sacrifice so should someone who get to go home every day or work a 35h week be paid the same as me, maybe not?
But I think everyone should have the opportunity to earn more etc…

I think the system would work better if there was an incentive to working hard currently I think working hard is mainly discouraged by the way the system is currently set up. I mean my brother is being paid for doing nothing while I am being taxed a lot of my salary for working a lot. So… it’s getting harder and harder to really grasp where my tax money is going and who it’s benefiting because it seems like taxes keep getting higher as seem to be the struggles of people and the speed at which the system seems to be collapsing

it would also help if businesses paid proper wages, but then there business models cannot function on proper wages etc

But where would everyone be if high earners taxes weren't paying for the NHS, education, road, various benefits lower earner receive, public housing etc.

In the private sector money pay is all a result of voluntary exchanges. Even when customers pay a company, the customers are choosing with their free will to give their money for the good/service they receive.

What gets difficult is when the incremental tax becomes a barrier to productivity.

Eg say I currently manage a team of 5 high qualified people and bring home 100k. We generate a lot of value for the business. Its a large listed business - your pension fund probably holds the shares and benefits from the growth generated.

I am asked to take on a more senior role. It will pay me £20k more per annum, i'm expecting to manage 3 more people and be responsible for more work/take on more stress.

Of that 20k... i will keep about 500 quid a month. Due to hours creep however, even though my contracted hours won't change, i will wind up unable to get away on time, and will spend the 500 quid on extra wraparound care for my two kids & a cleaner to pick up slack at home.

Overall it winds up not worth it. I turn down the promotion.

back in victorian england times basically

I think people forget most high earners now have been in the low pay scales and worked themselves up.
To then be expected to pay more tax now because people lower down on the greasy career pole want more monies is a little ripe.

I pay alot of tax but did not always and yes there were times when I was broke at the end of the month as my wage did not cover my outgoings. I cut my cloth, whereas now a days it is prop it up with benefits or cut your tax and get others to pay more tax.

The i want it and I want it now generation with instant sales gratification have a long way to go before they understand that sometimes you have to save to get what you want - no lattes, no boozy nights out, no amazon, no takeaways and no going out.

I am in frugal february at the moment- do not buy anything on line for the month, no takeaways, walk everywhere, no going to the pub and no meals out. Do i need to - no not really but not buying instantly off amazon for a month stops my spending massively. It resets my instant gratification button.

I think neurosurgeons are the coolest, operating on the brain.

In the USA neurosurgeons vastly outearn their NHS counterparts.

Most business model can probably work alongside paying proper wages by cutting off their margin. But actually I wouldn’t mind if to help businesses the government would top up the wages of employees so that businesses don’t recruit 1 person to do 3 jobs to save on wages, and so people can have a proper wage for their job and businesses still be profitable and encouraged to hire more.

In the end most businessman will make the most strategic economic decision for himself and his business but I do think instead of distributing benefits to those who can work and chose not to, the money could be redirected towards salaries so that all those who work can enjoy the reward of a decent salary instead of still struggling to make ends meet.

@Linning "Because I work abroad and don’t actually live back home most of the time, I am not actually entitled to or eligible for anything I pay for and don’t even get access to unemployment etc… while for me if I am still eligible to pay taxes in my country despite working abroad I should be able to get access to those benefits despite living abroad."

Are you in a pickle with your tax residence? You generally pay your tax where you reside most of the time. If you're still paying tax "back home" where you were born due to your foreign citizenship, you should be offsetting what tax you already had deducted on your wage wherever you are earning it, which will mean you don't pay much extra "at home". You are presumably eligible for all the benefits/state services where you live & work, and no you won't be eligible for them "back home".

But actually I wouldn’t mind if to help businesses the government would top up the wages of employees so that businesses don’t recruit 1 person to do 3 jobs to save on wages, and so people can have a proper wage for their job and businesses still be profitable and encouraged to hire more.

This, i don't mind tax credits etc topping up wages so we can compete with cheaper countries. Rather this than people who do not work at all being eligible for a bundle of benefits worth more than a low or middling earner keeps after tax & costs associated with working (childcare, commute).

UC recipients want to live off us taxpayers. Those who limit their salaries to reduce tax are still funding their lives. Whole world of difference there.