Lucy letby

[bloomingbonkerz]

Do you think she did it ? Watched the documentary and I’m not sure she should have been convicted

Of 257 handover sheets only 21 related to the indictment babies. Only 5 were in the box mentioned in the Netflix show. None of those 5 related to indictment babies. The rest of the sheets were in carrier bags. It simply isn’t reasonable to say that a random collection of papers points to murder or trophy keeping. If she’d actually had the sheets from all the relevant babies stored carefully in a box, then maybe this would have counted as circumstantial evidence but all we have is that she habitually went home with the sheets in her pocket and was very disorganised about dealing with them.

If you delve around in anyone's psyche there will be dark thoughts, the Pollyanna archetype / Mary Poppins type is a bit of a myth and can often mask suppressed and potentially sinister traits. Self awareness and examining / exploring those thoughts can help to change damaging behaviour patterns. Most people will self harm before they directly harm others, hence eating disorders, cutting, addiction. Very few serial killers had zero red flags prior to capture. Being "cold" or anxious means little in isolation, and certainly doesn't immediately point to the likelihood of harming others.

Part of those damned post it notes and other scribblings shows that one of the more damning sentences could be prefaced "They said" but it's so chaotic it's difficult to fully interpret.

I struggle with paranoia and intrusive thoughts at varying levels depending on stress in my life. Sometimes really awful thoughts go through my head and it horrifies me. I then remind myself that in my 50+ years of life I have consumed a vast amount of true crime, fiction, been exposed to all sorts of media and sensationalisef news material. That all contributes to the brains reference points for processing emotion and influencing thought processes, it's not that I am intrinsically evil, although self blame and shame are also part of my make up, ironically because I was falsely accused of harming my DC as an infant.

Which of course will be jumped on by some as evidence of personal bias with regards to my interest in this case.

But what can I say? We as a species are complex creatures, and understanding of our brains and psychology are still largely in infancy.

The fact remains that the medical evidence is in serious dispute. Until that is resolved, analysis of motive / character is a moot point.

This was 10 yrs ago things have changed since then. Data protection changed.

you still havn’t answered even though this paperwork was in her house most of it not relevant to the court case how does this = murder. You can argue the toss but still not a big flag that she was a serial killer. When actually the medical evidence used has proven to be wrong & another scenario given. No murders were commmited but lots substandard care.

I agree with this. I don’t think we can ever tell what someone is like. I worked in courts for years and some very dodgy people seem very normal.

That said, it’s surprising that there is a lack of any other evidence of dysfunctional behaviour outside the hospital. It sounds like she had a very normal friendship group. Her best friend seemed very well balanced.

I’m surprised that for someone who killed eight babies, there weren’t any indicators. No hurting animals, no attention seeking behaviour, or people generally thinking she was a wrong ‘un.

there’s usually something lurking in the background.

I think Letby is ND which explains a lot of her behaviour. She’d also been disciplined at work so I can see why she took the notes home and filed them. She was wrong to lie about the shredder. It was strange also that she didn’t just shred the notes rather than keep or file them.

I do think she was shy and socially awkward hence her friendship/relationship with the consultant/doctor. The photos of her life show her to be lively but this is only a snapshot of her life. The childish bedding/cards I think points to an emotionally undeveloped personality. I do think most of her friendships and relationships happened at the hospital plus her working extra hours there, it was her life basically, almost an obsession. Do I think she may have been upset by her relationship not going well and then seeing parents with babies would also upset her and make her jealous? I really don’t know as I don’t have an insight into her psyche/personality? Would this have been enough to make her kill? Again I don’t know. You have to be quite a sick individual to actually kill or harm a baby.

The attention seeking behaviour though, when the Babis died or got ill wasn’t she involved there? Was this normal behaviour for a nurse on that unit or not? It was interesting that 2 parents wanted to make her godmother to their baby. It’s a very intense environment an ICU.

She also wrote on the same notes which were done as therapy with a trust appointee counsellor ‘ I have done nothing wrong’

so why pick on wording that backs the killer rhetoric but nothing about words that state her innocence. I suggest you go & research.

The fact that she's white British has probably prompted more people to question the safety of her conviction than if she were not, I agree. However the fact that's she's white British is entirely irrelevant to whether she's guilty or not, so I'm not sure why her ethnicity and nationality is a factor in convincing you of her guilt?

I don’t think she ever expected these notes to be found. I think after her disciplinary she was on guard and maybe knew more about the deaths of the babies being due to problems on the unit and it confused her mind so she thought in some cases she may have been responsible for some of the deaths. Hence the wild variations in the notes. Add to this her difficult relationship with a married man (I think) and she wanted marriage and children herself and this could well tip someone into writing unwise thoughts.

Think if you had gone through what she & her parents went through for over 3yrs. You know whilst still in the hospital she didn’t know what they were accusing her of. She thought she had done something in her clinical practice. Then imagine you found out you were accused of murdering tiny babies how do you think you would react?
not sure I am aware she got disciplined in work what for? when?
why would you think she was jealous of parents. You do understand we see the worst in relationships as it is a stressful time lots of couples behave badly, not somthing to be jealous of all in your own mind. She was making a life for herself without a partner she just bought a house she was well liked had friends. Think the problem is you that’s how you might feel but don’t put your insecurity on others.
you made loads of comments about her personality. The question is if doctors were to blame through substandard care how grandiose they felt to be in control of someone’s life. Just go see how Dr Evan’s feels that he is better than Dr lees panel. That is insightful.

I'm just passing idle comment on the limited information I've seen. I don't need to research anything - my thoughts and comments are inconsequential, nobody here's trying to solve the case are they? And if they are, well I'm not likely to sway them because I watched a Netflix documentary when I was ironing yesterday.

Most people I’ve seen admit that bringing home handover sheets is not ideal, albeit many point out that it is commonplace and more is made of the nature of the documents than is true. They usually aren’t highly confidential because they don’t generally contain identifying information. However serious a breach you consider this to be, even if you consider it a disciplinary offence, it still isn’t circumstantial evidence of murder when a minuscule fraction of the documents relate to babies in the case. Similarly the Facebook searches just show she basically searched everyone she met. Curious, a facebook addict, but not circumstantial evidence of murder.

I didn't have a shredder.....

If she really wanted to get rid of them, she would have found a way. Have a bonfire and burn them up

Why say anything then? Especially if you are not sure about the facts. People repeat the things that others say. You heard of ‘ Chinese whispers ‘ cannot remember where I was taught this. If you tell one person a particular statement then repeat that through 5 people & see that the 1st statement & last statement are completely different. The point is repeating things that are not fact gets changed & warped the more repeated until people believe it.

You obviously didn’t read my posts. All I said was that it’s odd behaviour to stash notes like that. But odd behaviour isn’t clear evidence of guilt. I for one do believe she deserves a retrial because the evidence is sketchy. I don’t have strong beliefs either way that she is guilty or innocent.

I don’t know and neither does anybody commenting 🤷‍♀️ not a single one can solve the case.

Given that originally there was no evidence of foul-play in any of the deaths I find it hard to believe that suddenly they were all murders. To this day, I can't see any convincing forensic evidence that they were.

It feels awfully convenient that a seriously underperforming hospital with hygiene issues has a nice scapegoat for why so many babies died.

The reason why it's important that the medical evidence is re-examined is because of the risk of both legal and medical precedence being set.

For example, moving forward, imagine if every time a baby dies unexpectedly, and the cause is difficult to ascertain, it leads to a conclusion of "it must be air embolism" and therefore the baby was murdered. If a particular HCP is then identified as most likely responsible and ends up in court, the weight of Lucy Letby's conviction becomes heavier.

In extremis, it could lower the bar for "reasonable doubt" to a nonsensical level, where anyone present at an unexplained death could find themselves in the frame because they once argued with the "victim" or might be the beneficiary of a will or life insurance. While circumstantial evidence can be useful, you do first need actual evidence of murder, which IMHO shouldn't rest solely on the opinion of expert witnesses. Finding a person weird, and the "gut feelings" of people with axes to grind are irrelevant if you can't prove a crime beyond reasonable doubt.

My mind still boggles that Ravi claims he was allegedly haunted by his own cowardice after seeing Lucy Letby "doing nothing" while a baby desaturated, despite his instinct she was "doing something" to said baby. And then of course comes the revelation that she called him in to assist after all. At the very least, safeguarding means his first action should have been to protect the baby from harm by ordering her away, and then his suspucions could have been formally investigated, and appropriate action taken if he was right. You can guarantee that if a doctor suspected a parent of child abuse there would be an immediate intervention. This is one of the stinkiest aspects of the case, and one of the most glossed over.

I’ve worked on numerous wards and most did have confidential information on them back then. I agree with you regarding the Facebook searches. She could have been searching out of curiosity about how they were doing. There is no evidence of malice in that.

This might help people understand why she was so blindsided.

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0057494.pdf

I have sat on the fence over this for some time but I have now come to believe the conviction is unsound. The fact that no medical experts were called in her defence is lamentable. Now some of the most distinguished experts and clinicans in the world have examined the evidence and offered other suggestions. I believe at least there should be a retrial with some of these experts giving evidence for the defence. Even if she were exonerated tomorrow this young woman's life is ruined and the chances are she can never work again.

She had an investigation into her at work where her parents got involved, I think she was suspended but can’t recall.

I’m just trying to work out re comments on her personality as to what sort of a person she was and how she’s innocent or indeed guilty. I’m erring on the side of innocent. I do think in some cases if you are single and with a complex love life and you see happily married couples with babies then you may well think I want some of that.

I thought that too about the defense, then I read an article by a barrister explaining why you would keep your case so minimal - it is for the prosecution to prove guilt, and by over explaining the case for innocence, you can actually do your client a disservice. I cant remember the name of the person who wrote it or I would link it. And obviously in this case, it was catastrophically unhelpful - especially not calling the statistician who was on standby.

@Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain
". I do think in some cases if you are single and with a complex love life and you see happily married couples with babies then you may well think I want some of that."

But then people get on dating apps/ bury themselves in work or hobbies/ go speed dating... they don't kill babies