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Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

516 replies

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 15:31

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch (how original) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag.

I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Tankflop · 10/02/2026 21:04

Coconutter24 · 10/02/2026 21:04

When I said they I just meant who brought it up

I see. No problem but it wasn’t me.

Verytall · 10/02/2026 21:08

My post that was deleted was the one saying this thread was a spin off from another anti LGBT thread. That threads still up if anyone wants to see the link for themselves. Not sure why that's so controversial, unless it's taken as a TAAT.

It's really rather unethical to claim you're being attacked here.

Edit - in response to @Tankflop

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 21:08

Verytall · 10/02/2026 21:01

I didn't insult you, or personally attack you, I merely explained what you were doing. Do you not like it being pointed out? If that feels like a personal attack, maybe it's time to reflect.

You announced I was a troll!
you compared me to Tommy Robinson
how dare you.

I stand by arguments

women are under represented, especially women in the arts and media.

I have listed many factual examples.

How dare you accuse me of being a troll.

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 21:11

Verytall · 10/02/2026 21:08

My post that was deleted was the one saying this thread was a spin off from another anti LGBT thread. That threads still up if anyone wants to see the link for themselves. Not sure why that's so controversial, unless it's taken as a TAAT.

It's really rather unethical to claim you're being attacked here.

Edit - in response to @Tankflop

Edited

you announced that I was a troll.
You compared me to Tommy Robinson

You are absolutely out of order.

I am entitled to my opinion and the vast majority of my posts are about women being under represented in the arts.

Verytall · 10/02/2026 21:13

This reply has been deleted

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Tankflop · 10/02/2026 21:17

This reply has been deleted

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It’s relevant to the poster who brought up homophobia and transphobia.

All my arguments are genuine.

You need to stop accusing me of things and comparing me to Tommy Robinson. it is very rude

Verytall · 10/02/2026 21:20

Well I've been open about reporting the trolling to Mumsnet so there we are. I'm not interested in engaging any further as I've been clear as to my reasons why I don't think you're posting in good faith. And if you genuinely are, it's a shame that your beliefs are overshadowed by how you're putting it across, I'm not the only poster to question it.

Comefromaway · 10/02/2026 21:28

ShowMeTheSea · 10/02/2026 11:06

Haven't clicked on the link to read the article yet, but I think I recognise that Dame - is it Berwick Kaler?!
Love him if so - I never manage to catch a Wagon Wheel though 😂

Yes, that’s Berwick.

they still talk about him at YTR but I have to say the current Dame is also great.

Carla786 · 10/02/2026 21:38

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 18:59

You need to go back and read what I've written instead twisting it to suit your narrative.

I've already said that not all men who play the panto dame are gay but many prominent gay men have played this role and I listed some. One of them even played panto dames for half a century. That's a great gig - for one man.

I couldn't care less if the men are gay, straight, bisexual, asexual or anything else they fancy. I care that they're men taking roles from women when there are already too few roles for women in theatre.

I also care that men in panto represent older women in a misogynistic way from the get-go. Mr Simmons turned nice old Mother Goose into a Witch after all.

I also don't think it's healthy for young children to see older women depicted in a negative way. I think that contributes to the overall negative view of older women in real life too. I think it's time to change.

I'd also like to see what the many many highly skilled and talented actresses in the country could do with the panto dame persona and some are already breaking that particular glass ceiling.
Oh yes they are!!!

Edited

I don't like dames but I'm not convinced the Mr Simmons' example is very relevant now.

Panto dames took off in the 1860s with characters like Widow Twanky etc Dames may be comical but they usually play sympathetic characters, not evil witches (the Ugly Sisters, yes,,but that's not the most common type of dame)

'also don't think it's healthy for young children to see older women depicted in a negative way. I think that contributes to the overall negative view of older women in real life too. ' - I not fully convinced by this. Panto dames are comical largely because they are burly men, that is the central joke. I'm not sure if panto dames effect kids' views of older women in real life.

Carla786 · 10/02/2026 21:42

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I don't think that's necessarily true. Shows like RuPaul are misogynistic but they amplify deliberately shocking stuff for TV.

I think it varies. Someone like Danny LaRue didn't seem misogynistic in his impersonations to me. Nor Paul o'Grady.

Carla786 · 10/02/2026 21:49

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 18:05

Why would anyone want Prince Charming to be played by a grown woman?
(other than men?)

What about young girls going to see Cinderella?
I found it utterly bizarre as a child that the Prince was a grown woman old enough to be my mother.
What girl wants their mother to play Prince Charming?

I only found out much later why it happened at all - for the male gaze.

Bringing it back makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited

Given people like Vesta Tilley & Ella Shields had female fanbases, clearly some Victorian women did like principal boys. You see similar in Japan, as I said in pp, where the all-female Takarazuka Revue has a big female fanbase (they act out traditional stories often with music, similar in some ways)

Plenty of women on the thread have said they like them as part of traditional panto - are they all lying or men? Moreover plenty of lesbians & bi women like them.

'I found it utterly bizarre as a child that the Prince was a grown woman old enough to be my mother.
What girl wants their mother to play Prince Charming?'

  • if the actor is too old for the role that's a separate issue.

Part of the part of panto IS that they're bizarre. My mum as a child found the audience interaction horrible. Arguably the weird elements mean lots of kids & adults won't like them : but otoh, the sex swapping, audience interaction etc make it pantomime. You can adapt but if too much is taken out I suppose the people who enjoy going might not go so much.

WearyAuldWumman · 10/02/2026 21:56

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 17:49

I'm older so I'm sticking with "actress" which I don't consider to be an insult any more than the word "Princess". It's borrowed from French where every noun is either masculine or feminine, ditto for Spanish & Italian and lots of other languages we borrow from.

I notice that the IMDB uses "actress".

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000658/

Zov · 10/02/2026 22:07

WearyAuldWumman · 10/02/2026 21:56

I notice that the IMDB uses "actress".

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000658/

I call them actresses too. I am not calling women 'actors.' Even many actresses themselves prefer to be called 'actress.' There is nothing denigrating or outdated about it.

There was a question on The Chase the other week, where Bradley Walsh asked the question 'which female actor starred in blah blah blah....' So he had say FEMALE actor. Just say ACTRESS! So much easier, and no actress is offended by it.

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 22:12

Zov · 10/02/2026 22:07

I call them actresses too. I am not calling women 'actors.' Even many actresses themselves prefer to be called 'actress.' There is nothing denigrating or outdated about it.

There was a question on The Chase the other week, where Bradley Walsh asked the question 'which female actor starred in blah blah blah....' So he had say FEMALE actor. Just say ACTRESS! So much easier, and no actress is offended by it.

And interestingly, people generally just say actor and everyone presumes male. just like football and women’s football.
Male is the default.

Zov · 10/02/2026 22:18

Exactly Tankflop!

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 11/02/2026 06:55

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 22:12

And interestingly, people generally just say actor and everyone presumes male. just like football and women’s football.
Male is the default.

We should be challenging those unconscious biases instead of leaning into them.

Tankflop · 11/02/2026 08:12

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 11/02/2026 06:55

We should be challenging those unconscious biases instead of leaning into them.

which is what this thread is about, challenging unconscious bias.

The definition of the word actress is not sexist in any way. The word correctly defines a female actor. The poster claiming it is an outdated title is probably right but it’s still widely used as seen in the multiple links to best actress awards that people have posted on this thread.

On the other hand, a male acting in a show in an exaggerated stereotype of an older woman for laughs is a perfect example of internalized misogyny but people can’t see it, yet.

Another example is Drag, where mainstream acceptance of men dressing as a hugely unrealistic, exaggerated versions of women, fake boobs, overtly sexualised and bitchy patter is misogyny. The unrealistic and exaggerated features, similar to the black and white minstrels which, right so, was abolished and an embarrassment to the entertainment industry.

The drag queen on RuPaul’s drag race whose act included him dressed as an exaggerated versions of a woman, huge fake boobs and squeezing fake milk out of his fake boobs into bottles onto a table for popular mainstream TV is absolutely disgusting:

1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime by a man and women are still having to take companies to court for unfair dismissal due to ageism and sexism towards older women so we can do without being depicted as stereotypes by men for laughs.

Men dressing as a female stereotype whether it is an older woman, bitchy woman or lactating woman is misogyny plain and simple.

The word Actress, however, is just a definition, although I’m happy to use actor if she so wishes but often this needs clarification that it’s the female actor we are referring to.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 11/02/2026 08:37

which is what this thread is about, challenging unconscious bias.

No it isn’t.

The definition of the word actress is not sexist in any way. The word correctly defines a female actor. The poster claiming it is an outdated title is probably right but it’s still widely used as seen in the multiple links to best actress awards that people have posted on this thread.
So it’s outdated but not sexist? Okay.
Why do you think it’s outdated if it has nothing to
do with sexism? I have no real strong feelings either way. I prefer to use gender neutral terms for job titles but that’s my preference.

On the other hand, a male acting in a show in an exaggerated stereotype of an older woman for laughs is a perfect example of internalized misogyny but people can’t see it, yet.

Again, if you’d ever actually seen a pantomime you’d realise that this is not the case. You’ve built the role of a pantomime dame up into something it isn’t and have got all angry about it. Bit the thing you’re getting angry about doesn’t actually exist.
You’re comparing it to a drag artist and that is not what the character is.
It’s a male character but your refusal to acknowledge that is influencing your views.

Another example is Drag, where mainstream acceptance of men dressing as a hugely unrealistic, exaggerated versions of women, fake boobs, overtly sexualised and bitchy patter is misogyny.

The unrealistic and exaggerated features, similar to the black and white minstrels which, right so, was abolished and an embarrassment to the entertainment industry.

This isn’t a thread about drag artists. If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of drag then start a thread about it. By conflating the two issues you’re just tying yourself in knots.

The drag queen on RuPaul’s drag race whose act included him dressed as an exaggerated versions of a woman, huge fake boobs and squeezing fake milk out of his fake boobs into bottles onto a table for popular mainstream TV is absolutely disgusting:

What has that got to do with a pantomime. What do you think is actually happening at a family focused Christmas pantomime?

1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime by a man and women are still having to take companies to court for unfair dismissal due to ageism and sexism towards older women so we can do without being depicted as stereotypes by men for laughs.
Men dressing as a female stereotype whether it is an older woman, bitchy woman or lactating woman is misogyny plain and simple.

You sound unhinged. As a women who has been sexually assaulted numerous times I think you are being ridiculous. Again, I’ll ask what that fuck does this have to do with a character in a pantomime?

The word Actress, however, is just a definition, although I’m happy to use actor if she so wishes but often this needs clarification that it’s the female actor we are referring to.

Yes, because of unconscious bias.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 11/02/2026 08:45

Genuine question @Tankflopwhen was the last time you saw a pantomime?

StMarie4me · 11/02/2026 08:48

Erm… you’re either an older female actor yourself, in which case you’re biased. Or you’re not, in which case it’s nothing to do with you.
And you ARE being unreasonable.

Tankflop · 11/02/2026 08:52

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 11/02/2026 08:45

Genuine question @Tankflopwhen was the last time you saw a pantomime?

As I said before I have seen panto recently and hundreds of times over the last decades.

I think you, and other posters, keep asking this question because you can’t believe that I would see the Dame in a way that you don’t. I can understand how you might see it as funny because it’s just a tradition and it’s an male actor dressed as a woman and that in itself is funny to you. However, I see it quite differently. I have tried to explain but I totally understand that you have a different opinion. I’m not challenging whether you have seen one because that would be rude.

I have said I have multiple times.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 11/02/2026 09:02

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Tankflop · 11/02/2026 09:27

which is what this thread is about, challenging unconscious bias.
No it isn’t.

I am challenging yours and other posters unconscious bias that a male actor playing the Dame role is funny and harmless. I don’t think it’s the worst thing in the world (drag is far worse) but we would do well challenge traditions that normalise the idea that men dressed as exaggerated stereotypes of older women is actually funny. The dames often stereotype the inaccurate characteristics and mannerisms of women for laughs.

-----------------

The definition of the word actress is not sexist in any way. The word correctly defines a female actor. The poster claiming it is an outdated title is probably right but it’s still widely used as seen in the multiple links to best actress awards that people have posted on this thread.

So it’s outdated but not sexist? Okay.

The two concepts are not always related, something can be outdated but not sexist.

--------------

Why do you think it’s outdated if it has nothing to
do with sexism?

Because I think some people believe using a gender neutral term eliminates biases which are prevalent against women in the industry. I personally don’t believe changing the title to the male version is helpful but I can understand that many female actors do. This is why i said it is outdated not that I believe it is sexist personally.

---------------

On the other hand, a male acting in a show in an exaggerated stereotype of an older woman for laughs is a perfect example of internalized misogyny but people can’t see it, yet.

Again, if you’d ever actually seen a pantomime you’d realise that this is not the case. You’ve built the role of a pantomime dame up into something it isn’t and have got all angry about it. Bit the thing you’re getting angry about doesn’t actually exist.
You’re comparing it to a drag artist and that is not what the character is.
It’s a male character but your refusal to acknowledge that is influencing your views.

I agree the traditional dame is not exactly the same as drag but there are similarities, they both depict women as exaggerated stereotypes for laughs, the dame has more innuendo and drag way more sexualised but nowadays there is a cross over between panto and drag artists. Two well known drag artists in panto come to mind who do not play the part to look like men in women’s clothing.

Craig Revel Horwood is a regular in panto former drag queen

Courtney Act who actually came straight out of Ru Paul’s drag race to star in panto at Bradford last year and was billed as such.

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Tankflop · 11/02/2026 09:29

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The two drag artists I have mentioned

Craig Revel Horwood does play the female villan though.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 11/02/2026 09:34

@Tankflopwhat specific negative stereotypes do pantomime dames portray? Which of those contribute to the rape and sexual assault of women? Which of those contribute to negative views of women in society?

I don’t want to hear about drag acts. They’re different. I want to know specifically what the negative impact the pantomime dame has on women.