Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

[SpringTimeIsRingTime]

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch (how original) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag.

I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

Well the Dame was played by a woman this year in our local panto, and although she was very over the top, she wasn't as funny (or as naturally well-padded) as the bloke who normally plays the Dame. Who isn't gay (I know him). The bloke who plays the Dame in another local village Am Dram isn't gay either (I know him too).

So there's two of your assertions disproved.

@Pantopedantic As I recall commenting on the other thread, can't let the facts get in the way of a good old witchhunt.

Yeah, WTF, a bit of a big assumption from that poster there! 😂

Same.

Our local panto has had a woman playing the dame for a few years now. The current incumbent is very good, but it's just not as funny and slapstick as when it was previously played by a man.

Principal boy is still played by a girl.

OP keeps harping back to the "original" Mother Goose story but pantos don't follow the "original" stories in many ways - Cinderella's stepsisters don't cut off parts of their feet, Snow White's Evil Queen doesn't dance herself to death in red hot shoes, Sleeping Beauty doesn't get pregnant whilst asleep...

They'd have theatres full of traumatised audience members, if thry followed the original stories. Probably not children, as they'd prove to be adult-only. Ladybird and Disney made them less horrific for good reason.

Does it matter if actors are gay or not? They are, after all, acting. None of them is actually a witch or a fairy godmother or a rat king or the backend of a horse, etc.

They absolutely could be, but then they wouldn't be panto Dames. The point you are missing is that panto Dames aren't, in fact, female characters. They aren't men playing women, they are men playing men dressed as women for comic effect. The character is a man dressed as a woman.

And, to answer your other point, no, it isn't bigoted to laugh at a man in a dress when said man is deliberately wearing that dress for obvious comic effect. Panto dames are not trans characters, any more than they are cis female characters. They are male characters, specifically designed and written for men to play.

A panto with women cast in those roles is simply a panto without a Dame in it. The Dame is a character in its own right. A male character.

You’ve genuinely lost the plot OP. Absolutely unhinged.

I think you need to open your mind a little.

Tradition isn’t ever a reason to ensure older women don’t have a role.

No I don’t need to open my mind thank you.

Perhaps you need to educate yourself though. Please tell me in what way are female actors being disadvantaged in the profession by a male character being played by a male actor? Is this the only role you think older female actors should have? A character that’s actually written for a man and where humour lies in the fact it’s a man. Is that what older female actors want?

Tradition doesn’t automatically mean something bad. It doesn’t automatically mean it’s something that should be abandoned or changed just for the sake of it.
If you could prove that female actors are being systematically disadvantaged due to limited opportunities to play a pantomime dame then you might have a point. Is the pantomime dame being played by a man harming society? Causing a decline in audience numbers?

Other than virtue signalling what is the actual benefit to making this change?

Roles

Cinderella
Ugly sister - male
Ugly sister - male
Buttons - male
Prince - male (traditionally female but no longer)
Dandini - male (traditionally female but no longer)
Cinderella - female

Minor character - Fairy God mother - female

Aladdin
Aladdin - Male (traditionally female but no longer)
Wishy Washee - Male
Abenazar - Male
Widow Twankee - Male
Princess - Female

Minor Characters -
Policemen - Male
Spirit of the ring (normally the same actor double)

Dick Whitington

Dick Whittington - Male
Alderman Fitzwarren - Male
Alice Fitzwarren - Female
Dame Sarah - Male
Cat - Normally Male sometimes female
King Rat - Male

As some of the traditional topsy turvy roles such as Dandini are nearly always played by men now there is a total imbalance. And the women’s roles are for young women only in the main with insipid characters. It’s actually outrageous!

As usual nothing for older women.

If you don’t think women are part of society then maybe that’s the problem.

Older women are massively under represented in the arts/media. There has even been a law suits where a women in TV have both been paid less and been fired for reaching a certain age.

Come on, you know this right?

Firstly, pantomimes are just one small aspect of theatre. Show me evidence that they are systematically disadvantaging older female actors across the profession?

Secondly, the last 5 pantomimes I’ve seen have had female heavy casts.

The only male characters/actors have been the Dame who is usually the young male character’s ‘mum’, the young male character (sometimes played by a woman) and a random male love interest for the dame (often the young female main characters dad or a buttons type character)

All other characters have been female:
Main young female character- women
Fairy godmother- women (usually older)
Villain - woman (usually older)

🤷🏼‍♀️

What the fuck are you talking about.
How have you interpreted what I’ve said as me thinking women aren’t part of society? You’re being ridiculous and are clutching at straws.
I’ve not said that women aren’t underrepresented in the profession or that they aren’t treated unfairly in some parts of the sector.

What I’m saying is that is that men playing a male character in a pantomime is not part of the problem.
But that level of nuance seems to be lost on you.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c80y1j4r8yeo

If you don’t think ageism towards women (not men) is prevalent in the arts and media think again. Roles and jobs for older women are so thin on the ground.

If you can’t see the imbalance in all types of work in the arts/ media industry then I stand by my point, you need to open your mind a little.

Panto dame is just one very small example of a much wider issue.

You said that this wasn’t hurting society.
It is hurting women and they are part of society.

Your anecdotal evidence of heavy female cast is not accurate for the industry.
Trust me on this, the vast majority of roles are payed by men in most shows.

Also, I kind of knew you’d say “it’s just one small aspect of theatre”. Kind of ridiculous statement considering it’s the whole point of the thread AND indicative of the wider industry as a whole.

It’s actually outrageous!

Oh, no it isn't

Where have I said that ageism doesn’t exist. You’re trying to argue against a point I’ve not even made.

Please explain to me how a man playing a male character is ageist?

because there are no main parts for older women.

There that’s it.

Again, how is a male actor playing a male character harming society.

If you can’t see why after all my posts I can’t help you.

But there are.

In every panto I’ve seen in the last few years the fairly godmother and the main villain have been played by older women.

I’ve made some very clear arguments show you just how roles are already male and how few are for women.

You chose to say well the five pantos I’ve seen weren’t like that and closed your mind.

The list I wrote is accurate for most pantos nowadays because the traditional swapping of young male character to be played by a woman is out of fashion.

So you can’t answer that specific question? Thought so.