Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

[SpringTimeIsRingTime]

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch (how original) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag.

I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

Tell me you don’t understand Shakespeare without telling me you don’t understand Shakespeare!! He literally wrote lines fully intended to by funny because a man was playing the role - As You Like It is a prime example “If I were a woman I would kiss as many of you as had beards that please me” - literally a female character played by a man, playing on the fact the audience knows he is a man playing a woman. A Midsummer Night’s Dream has a scene with a man complaining he has to play a girl in the inner play, which was intended to be comedic knowing the dynamics. There’s a massive amount of ‘cross dressing’ within the plays (man playing woman playing man) in the comedies, like Twelfth Night, Merchant of Venice, etc.

The roles in the plays were frequently written with the fact the role was to be played by a man, and jokes and stage directions written accordingly - by your own logic, women should not play Lady Macbeth, Viola, Rosalind, Cleopatra, The Nurse, etc.

These roles could be played differently and brilliantly by women.
My main issue is that women are excluded from playing female roles that would otherwise go to older actresses and comedians who could do with the work.
Why discriminate in favour of men?
They already have most of the good roles in acting as it is.

It’s not a female role though!!!! Why are you so determined to ignore that fact!

Several women are breaking this glass ceiling and taking the role of the panto dame and why on earth not?!

Dawn French was fabulous as Dame Trot in Jack and the Beanstalk.
Other older female comedians would jump at the opportunity but are being excluded. Caroline Quentin wrote about this back in 2016.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3925808/Having-male-panto-dame-sexist-claims-Caroline-Quentin-Christopher-Biggins-says-Oh-no-isn-t.html

Mother Goose predates panto by centuries and was a well-loved grandmother figure - Joseph Grimaldi stole the idea from Mr Simmons who had decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch instead of according to the fairy tale.
That's sexism right there.
Grimaldi ran with the idea because the public were getting bored with clowns (and who could blame them? - They creep me out too).

If that what they want to do and that’s what a theatre company chooses to write then that’s their prerogative. However, it doesn’t take away from the fact that in a traditional British pantomime the role of the dame is written for, and played by a man. The humour of the character often hinges on that aspect.
Writing that part for a woman changes the dynamic and the whole premise of that character and it’s role in the story.

This isn’t about breaking glass ceilings, it’s about the character of a traditional art form.

The story predates pantomime… so what? It doesn’t mean the role of the pantomime dame was ever designed to be played by a woman.

Dames should stay and Principal boys should revert to women.

Many but not all are gay.
Christopher Biggins played panto dames for 50 years.
Some other notable dames were Danny La Rue, Paul O'Grady, John Inman, Jack Tripp, Freddie Lees, Johnny McKnight and many more in regional theatres.

An art form that mocks older women - how original.

What about the smaller local productions? How can you possibly know the sexuality of the cast members of all of his pantomimes that are performed every year?

I’m beginning to think you’ve never actually seen a pantomime…

Well now we know where the threshold is. Gender critical, feminist, all good-but don’t come for Widow Twanky!

I don't think the OP ever had any interest in Shakespeare, or intent to understand it - the thread was started on the back of another about drag queens reading to children, and their view that no man should ever wear a dress (makes them perverts apparently). I don't think their interest in women's theatre roles is genuine, it's wanting to ban men from what they consider to be misogynistic behaviour on a par with blackface.

Mother Goose pre-dates Panto by hundreds of years.
You're saying it's okay for a man to rewrite the character as a witch and play her as a nasty nagging old woman but not to reclaim the original character and have her played by women who bring a lot more to the role than a tired old trope.

Black & White Minstrels used to be all the rage until they weren't.
My view is that panto dames should be played by women not men who interpret them in an old-fashioned sexist manner not in keeping with the times.
They've run their course and are clapped out.

The whole concept is sexist and not a good role model for girls in the audience.

The principal boy roles are now mainly played (as they should be) by young men. Why can't we do the same for panto dames?

There are plenty of fantastic comedians and comic actresses who have a million times more skill and talent than the men playing panto dames.

It’s like talking to a brick wall 🙄

A pantomime is loosely based on a traditional story. It’s not meant to be a detailed, accurate re-telling. It’s a particular art form that takes elements of a story and mixes it with current affairs and local information for satirical effect. My local theatre did Mother Goose this year and I don’t recall the original character becoming TikTok famous as they did in this performance or remember the original story being partly set in my neighbouring village. That’s the point of a panto - that mix of traditional story with contemporary, local
references.

The dame character is written specifically for a man. The script is written taking that dynamic into account. It just wouldn’t work the same way if it was written for an older woman. Why is that so difficult to understand?

When I was little, the principal boy was always played by a woman, as was the principal girl. So if men are going to be the male lead, seems only fair that women play the dame.

I know one who has a wife and kids, if that helps. He's an entirely ordinary bloke with a regular day job. Then, once a year, his am dram society puts on a pantomime in a local theatre and he plays the Dame.

Come to think of it, when I did am dram (long ago), I was in a couple of pantos and those Dames were straight blokes with families. I did their make-up. 😁

You are calling them 'actresses'? Oh dear.🙄

That's pretty outdated, and some people find it denigrating. The majority of people in the performing arts use the gender-neutral 'actor' these days.

If you want to find gay people in the theatre, I suggest you cast your net a fair bit wider than just looking at the Dames in panto.😂

It's actually just mocking a bloke in an outlandish silly costume. In any case, the Dame is portrayed as a loving, friendly happy-go-lucky character. With a sense of humour, which is singularly lacking in some of the posts on this thread.

No, but judging by the fact they've posted the same link to the same article twice, they do read the Daily Mail.

Is that you @HighLadyofTheNightCourt ?

Definitely feels like it 😂😂