Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

[SpringTimeIsRingTime]

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch (how original) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag.

I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

Cynthia Erivo and Sarah Snook are both still young women not yet in their 40s, so only just starting to approach middle age.
At 38 and 39, they're considered "old" in terms of theatre (and I think Cynthia is 40 this year). Just look at some of the comments about Cynthia's age playing Elphaba

Oh, speaking of Wicked, Madame Morrible is another to add to the list of roles for older women

Waitress has roles for older and younger women
Cruella in 101 Dalmatians
Mama M in Chicago
The Narrator in Joseph has been played by all ages and genders
Jamie's Mom in Jamie and the two mothers in Dear Evan Hanson
I can think of roles in Paddington, 9 to 5 and Mean Girls for older women
Burlesque has at least one older woman role

They might not all be leads but they are major roles, often cast as "famous names", and have some of the most powerful songs

You've given a handful of female stars but I just don't think it compares to the roster of men who are the local regulars in the big city pantos each year, and who are essentially guaranteed the gig. With the exception of Elaine C Smith, if you had to form a list of renowned panto performers - it is mostly men.
Allan Stewart, Stanley Baxter, Julian Clary, Christopher Biggins, Clive Rowe etc.

I feel the women you mentioned get to do a star turn rather than being part of the main regular gang. It is different in smaller venues and you do have to remove community panto from this as it is usually the same people playing the same parts each year - it really depends on who turns up to auditions and who's willing to don the Dame's frock!

Just my personal opinion. I have stopped seeing some of the big name pantos as they are a bit repetitive and boring now, dare I say. Same joke sequences repeated each year, little plot. When you've seen 4/5 years in a row, it's all much the same but costumes etc always pretty spectacular. You should always support your local panto though!
I've worked in theatre a long time, and am perhaps starting to feel a bit jaded which is colouring my perspective.

sorry - managed to click on wrong post!

Really?

Foreigners doing things differently to the way we do things. Fancy that.

I disagree, you've gone back for some of those names and I could too for the female stars - Ruth Madoc and Cilla Black being the two that immediently come to mind

Su Pollard especially is not a "star turn" but is a well known and well respected panto star and plenty of the others play into pantos year after year.

Smaller venues with their well known casts every year are also valid, those men and women are local celebrities

I've worked on and watched too many pantos now, they are formulaic and work off set patterns. If you watch a Crossroads or Imagine panto, they are very samey but if you go to other companies you'll find a bit more variety

It still means British stages are showcasing racially insensitive material

It's not a "gotcha" to say "well it's ok. They are British"

Ballet is international yes, in that most companies in the world have an international company of dancers. Far more so than you'd expect.

By British companies, I was meaning companies based here in the UK such as Scottish Ballet, Ballet Cymru, Ballet Black, Northern Ballet, English National Ballet, Royal Ballet, Birmingham Royal Ballet. Those companies have dancers from all over the world on their payrolls.

young woman though.

I think that’s OP’s point.

Where are the older women’s roles in panto? Taken by older gay men

Older women in panto play the villains and the fairies....

"I disagree, you've gone back for some of those names" - eh? Stanley Baxter sadly died last year but the other names are all current panto performers.

Reaching back would be Dan Leno & Harry Lauder.

The role of the dame is written for a man. It’s not meant to be played by an older woman.
The humour is directly related to it being played by a man. The op has completely ignored that fact.

It absolutely could be adapted back to how it was originally intended though.

And each famous act that is hired to be themselves would be scripted in their own way. Such as Julian Clary would be very sexualised or back in the day Les Dawson would have done his own act. Nothing to do with the panto really just adapted

What do you mean adapted back to how it’s always been? Historically and traditionally it’s always been played by a man.
The comedy of the character is based on that fact.

What you’re suggesting is changing the format and character of the traditional pantomime.

Did you not read the OPs post that it was originally a part for women?
Sorry I don’t know which post now.

But Anyhow it is now a very different feel and script than years gone by. The Danes are just themselves.
think Dane Edna just doing their own character. Same as Les Dawson just doing his ADA sketch.

The OP is pretty clueless tbh. They’ve pretty much ignored anyone pointing out that the character of the pantomime dame has historically and traditionally always been played by a man. The character is specifically written to be played by a man.
The pantomime I watch every year has the traditional same character played by a man. It wouldn’t work if a woman was playing that role.

Just because someone starts a Mumsnet thread doesn’t make them right!

Deleted as duplicate post.

Firstly I need to know that you know that Dame Edna was a character played by a man and secondly OP doesn’t know what she’s talking about as proved by several people on this thread.

Are they gay? How many actually are?

The audience aren't laughing at older female figures. They are laughing at a character who is blindingly obviously a man in a dress. A good panto dame is very obviously male. That's where the humour is. People are laughing at a man wearing a dress, not at older women.

You'd have a point if the point was that the audience were supposed to believe that the same was a woman, or if the same was dressed and made up to have any sort of realistic portrayal about it, but it isn't.

The role of the panto dame is purely about the comedy of obviously male figures pretending to be women. We are laughing at the man. At the very idea that anyone could really believe the obvious male was a woman.

how they can be called gender non conforming when it is a show. Back in communism I had two PE teachers dressed in tutus dancing like a ballerinas at Christmas. We loved it and laughed our hearts out

where is ancient Greek comedy and tragi-comedy...it started back then with men wearing women's masks

That's down to the theatres booking them then, and the audience members who have booked tickets.

Women can do a better job at playing the panto dame.
Dawn French was superb in Jack & the Beanstalk and some other regional theatres are finally allowing actresses and comedians to play dames in panto.
There shouldn't be a veto on women taking female roles.
There are few enough roles for older actresses as it is.

Surely it's bigoted to laugh at a man in frock?!

why do you keep ignoring the fact that this isn’t a role that has been written for older women in the first place. The humour is in the fact that’s it’s meant to be played by a man.

Are most panto dames gay?