To think that no racist ever admits they are a racist

[Sweetiedarling7]

“I’m not a racist but…”
I hear this so often. Does any racist ever come out and say they are a racist?
I don’t think so.

Absolutely! For far to long callling someone a racist has been used by the left to shut down any debate they don’t like. Well now it’s coming back to haunt them because people genuinely couldn’t care less about being labelled racist anymore.

But I think anti - semetism is against the Jewish religion. Surely that's appropriate for all Jews then no matter what their race. .

Most who are opposed to racism are opposed to it in all its forms. Including antisemitism.

Anyone who claims to be antiracist while seeking to justify or excuse antisemitism is a raging hypocrite. They do exist, of course, and they are every bit as wrong as any other racists.

It is of course possible to have legitimate concerns about the actions of the current Israeli government without being antisemitic in any way. Just as it is possible to find the actions of Hamas on 7th October utterly abhorrent without being Islamophobic in any way.

Personally, I do have concerns about the actions of the Israeli government - as indeed I have concerns about actions of many other foreign governments - but I would never have contemplated going on any of the marches because there were clearly antisemitic elements amongst them.

I find it really helpful when the racist fuckwits are honest and open about their racism. At least we know what we're dealing with then, and we can sideline them accordingly.

"It is of course possible to have legitimate concerns about the actions of the current Israeli government without being antisemitic in any way"

I fully believe you are not anti semitic. But my problem is how eaily accusations are thrown around. If someone on this thread said they had "legitimate concerns about immigration but weren't racist in any way". I think they would have accusations or insinuations of racism directed at them pretty quickly.

I mean, the middle classes are very much in white saviour mode. There are the deserving victims of racism and the undeserving. In their minds it’s like two homgenous groups, POC and white people.

The PoC must be so grateful for the support of the white middle class. They are defined in the middle class mind as a group who are victims of nasty white people the aspirational classes are desperate not to be part of, supporting PoC was a badge to distinguish them from the less aspirational white people.

In their mind, supporting other victims of discrimination, eg Jewish people (who are often white and therefore not part of the homogeneous PoC “victim” group the aspirational classes value) doesn’t carry the same social cache.

None of this is actually about supporting people actually needing support, otherwise we would see these aspirational saviour group standing outside Jewish schools to protect them, outside synagogues. Marching to help the people of Sudan.

it’s all about how it looks to other aspirational people, being accepted. It’s not about understanding differences. it’s about groups of people they are very unlikely to have and real contact with.

i would say our brown Hindu friends are far more vocal about Muslims than any white person I’ve met. Look at the various black v Asian race riots.

Did they say the word'racist' or did they just make obviously racist comments?

The correlation between education and liberalism isn't bigotry, its a fact supported by emperical evidence. The patronising slant you gave that, by suggesting that clever and educated people can see the left wing light is your work, not mine.
The correlation I am making is that the more advantaged a person is (and high education is an advantage) the better their lives are likely to be. The less need they will have to fight over scarce resources with other groups, the less impacted they will be by social problems, the less likely they are to be personally angry with the world, look for a scapegoat and punch down.
The point being that disadvantage needs addressing at its root so that people have no need for the discontent that leads some to these behaviours.

Speaking only for yourself there 😬

As a matter of interest, assuming you live in England, how would you feel if the Scottish Government had a long standing policy to take over England and make everyone Scottish accepting all Scottish policies or die ,organised its forces to attack the Glastonbury festival killing and raping thousands of fesitival goers, men women and children. Kidnapping some and taking them back to Scotland. How would you like the English government to react? (Let’s just say for sake of argument those Scottish policies inc medieval laws punishing being gay with possible death, heavy curtailing womens rights, involved in terrorist activity. Say the Scottish government were backed by Russia.

What would you have liked the English government to do. How would you feel if you were bombarded with media and social media supporting Scotland?

I think it depends on how the concerns are expressed.

Having concerns about immigration does not automatically make you racist. I know people who are concerned about immigration who I do not consider to be racist. But a lot of people who have concerns about immigration express those concerns in very racist rhetoric. That understandably leads to the conclusion that they are racist. If they were not racist, they would find a better way to express their concerns.

In the same way, having concerns about the Israeli government does not automatically make you antisemitic. But a lot of people express these concerns in very antisemitic rhetoric. IMO, that makes them antisemitic and therefore racist. If they were not antisemitic, they would find a better way to express their concerns.

We have to be able to have conversations about the pros and cons of immigration, and it cannot be taboo to express concerns about the way in which it is managed. I don't think people are racist for raising such concerns unless they express themselves in a racist manner.

We have to be able to criticise the Israeli government, just as we might criticise the US government, the Iranian government or the Russian government. Israel should not be held to higher standards than anyone else, but equally, it should not be immune from criticism either.

The problem arises when people use issues around immigration or the Israeli government's actions in Gaza as vehicles for the expression of their hate towards particular groups. The issues just become an excuse.

So what do you consider “expressed in a racist manner”?

I agree with most of that. But I think even in this short thread, there are some of examples of people being accused (or at least insinuations) of racism who have not used racist rhetoric. My belief is that if your actual goal were a less polarised, less divided and less racist society, you wouldn't innoculate people against accusations of racism in this way, enabling people to shrug them off as nonsense. If your goal was a 5 second feeling of smugness and superiority over someone online with no regard for long term consequences, you would act in exactly this way.

It varies. Often includes sweeping generalisations. Racist rhetoric. Disinformation. Deliberate fearmongering. It takes many forms.

As does antisemitism.

Out of interest, do you believe that racist white people and those who defend them and tell them the answer is to 'take back our country' are standing outside synagogues in an expression of support for Jewish people? That those who want the UK 'back' to a white Christian country will make an exception for Jewish people once they've got rid of Muslims? Because while there's a lot of noise from the right about anti semiticism at the moment, because they've found a way to use it to malign 'the left', support for ethnic and cultural minorities isn't really their bag, is it?

I think blatantly racist people will often own it as they genuinely believe their own vitriol. People who say they are not racist often believe they are not but don’t connect their actions /behaviours that suggest otherwise.

it’s the same with misogyny/homophobia etc

Could you highlight the specific examples that you're referring to, and why you think someone has been unfairly accused?

On the 1st page in the 1st few replies, there are two blanket statements along the lines of anyone who says "im not racist but..." is probably racist.

Then at 12:06 we have our first "Well i think you sound racist", in response to someone saying its not racist to be concerned about immigration. (Arguably a direct parallel to your, "its not anti semitic to be critical of the Israeli govt.)

Thats just page 1, I expect there are more.

Its not a parallel at all. How can criticism of a specific actions taken by a specific government possibly be racism against a group of people, some of whom are governed by that administration? Would anyone say that criticism of the Labour government is an 'ism' against British people?
Saying someone sounds racist because they're 'concerned about immigration' is typically linking behaviour to belief. Because while not everyone who is 'concerned about immigration' is racist, all racists are 'concerned about immigration'. So unfortunately a link has been established between one and the other. It would be hugely helpful in breaking that if the 'concerned' anti racists gave some indication of their support for anti racism alongside expressing their concern about immigration, then we could more easily identify who were the 'concerned' and who were the racists. Unfortunately they tend not to.

Honestly, I have never once heard someone say "I'm not racist but..." without it being followed by something that is actually racist. If you know that you're not about to say something racist, you don't generally have to preface your words with such a disclaimer.

Is it possible that someone might say "I'm not racist but..." followed by a completely non-racist comment? Well, yes, in theory it is, but I have never encountered this in the real world.

Re the 12.06 post, I can't really comment on why the poster said that @Netcurtainnelly sounded racist to her- @BillieWiper would need to explain that for herself.

Personally, I would not have responded in that particular way to that particular post - from my perspective, there wasn't really enough substance to warrant a response to that post at all. However, I am less than convinced that the bit which gave rise to the allegations of "sounding racist" was simply the expression of concerns around illegal immigration per se. Far more likely, I think, that it was a combination of the claim that the word racism is used far too often (an argument very commonly propounded by people who are clearly racist but don't like being labelled as such) with the assertion that there must somehow be something wrong with anyone who does not automatically share the poster's concerns. But it is not for me to speak for other posters so I will let @BillieWiper explain why she said what she said.

@rockingrollerthey proudly stated they were racist and immigration is the issue.

Wow. I have never heard anyone proudly say they are racist. Only the 'I am not a racist but' version.

Firstly I think that there is currently a supply / demand imbalance of racism.

Of course historically there were significant numbers of the UK population that disliked or were suspicious of people of colour. This is part was out of ignorance and over time I genuinely believe that most people in the UK are not racist.

Of course there will continue to be racist comments for example if someone nabbed a parking space in front of you you might profane "f'ing ginger t*t" or whatever. But is this racism based on a deep seated dislike of that sex, skin colour, sexuality, physical appearance of the person nabbing the parking space or simply (and partly through ignorance) adding an unnecessary physical description to the insult when "f'ing t*t" would have been sufficient.

Equally I think there are more people wanting to shout "racism or that's racist" or claim examples of racism, out of white virtue signalling, than there is actually real examples of racism.

Lastly I really think that the best way to combat racism is to just stop going on about skin colour or bringing it into every debate.

Why can't we just judge people by the content of their and their achievements where their skin colour is completely irrelevant.

I think we should all be aware that we as a species are vulnerable to racism... ie to feeling racist. We've evolved in small groups of people who look exactly like us. Children show a preference for the colour skin they are most familiar with. And when we feel under threat we look for the threat outside our close group, and look to protect those in our immediate group.
I think we can overcome this instinct within ourselves but it's harder if we can't admit to ourselves that it's there.

I've heard my children say racist things. Do I think they are little racists at heart? No. But they are part of the society they've grown up in. They watch ( limited, but some ) TV. Do they need to be shown the wrongness of what they have thought/ said? Yes- its not automatic knowledge.

Not necessarily. My mum is one of those casual racists that doesn’t like it until you point it out and then she admits it. As in she’s not voting Reform or anything but holds what I’d call old fashioned views on it.