Vegan baby

[Expecteddeclathon]

In your opinion, is it ok for a baby to be vegan from weaning (6 months)?

I'm genuinely curious - what is your definition of 'vegan'?

That's not any of the definitions I've found. Yours is very specific and 'dairy' can have several meanings. However, one of them is 'products produced from milk' which suggests (but doesn't specify) that it doesn't include human milk. Another is 'the place where milk is processed' which also doesn't suggest it's human milk. I guess it depends what we mean by 'milk'!

Dairy has an obvious literal meaning. It means milk products from an actual DAIRY.
Human milk doesn't come from a dairy. This really isn't complicated.

My sister and her partner are both committed vegans, but they brought up their kids vegetarian because it was too challenging to meet their protein needs on a vegan diet. I know in theory it could be done, but not with picky eaters which many children are. Now as young adults one is vegan and one remains vegetarian.

No you’re right actually. One of my babies had a dairy milk allergy so I was advised not to drink it while bf, so I would say dairy consuming Mums don’t produce vegan milk. So essentially the animal is still being exploited to produce that baby’s food (albeit indirectly)
A vegan Mum will produce milk free from any animal produce, as in this particular case.

I'm so curious about this now. So you'd posit that Mongolian horse milk isn't dairy? Or Maasai cow milk? Or pet goat milk? Because from what I've seen, those are considered dairy products, despite not having been anywhere near a 'dairy' in terms of a milking shed/building.

Dairy might mean a place animals are milked, but according to the dictionary, it's also come to mean the 'milk products' of a mammal that humans drink, whether or not the animal was milked on a dairy farm. (In NZ, it also means a small general shop.)

Then they are sensible caring parents who put the wellbeing of their children first.

Interesting! That makes sense, I suppose, when you link it to allergies.

Probably, but cows' milk is meant for calves, not humans! I have no problem with people consuming cows' milk, by the way. Each to their own.

Interestingly, I have just found out today that the Alpro No-added sugar almond drink (milk) that I have happily been consuming for ages, is actually a UPF! It seems to me that we have to research literally everything we consume these days. Even Actimel which has been advertised on tv a lot recently is a UPF.

You're being too literal now. They are dairy to us in the sense that they are animals used for their milk by humans. Dairy is not a word found in every language, obviously, the concept is self may not be universal.
We use the word dairy because of where we milk the animals. But the salient point is humans milking other species to take their milk. Human milk is not dairy.

@CDTC have they ever been tested for any deficiencies out of interest??

@Expecteddeclathon fellow vegan here. I have not trawled through the pages of debate over whether breast milk is vegan 🙄 so this may have already been shared.

I’m not from Norfolk, but NHS Norfolk have a great guide to veganism from weaning to 5. I actually printed it out! Even the first page of this thread is full of misinformation and false assumptions, corrected in this document:

https://www.justonenorfolk.nhs.uk/media/ocagvmhe/eating-well-vegans-web-compressed.pdf

Again… All dairy is milk but not all milk is dairy.

Think almond milk, oat milk and breast milk. Not dairy.

Therefore breast milk is vegan.

If you want to take it a step further then we need to consider whether a non-vegan mother’s breast milk is vegan? But why would a non-vegan raise her child as vegan? What about wet-nursing? I think this is taking the debate a step too far.

I would like to imagine that a person who chooses to be a vegan is not going to debate whether their own milk is an animal by-product. Breast milk is literally meant and intended for human consumption through biology. Just as cows milk is for calves. And mouse milk for little mice etc etc etc The fact that we as humans have decided to milk and farm another species for our own consumption does not mean that our own milk is now the same product.

Almond milk oat milk etc. aren't milks by definition. (Interestingly even lactose free milk can't be called milk in my country because its been changed too much from the natural product, has to be labelled milk-drink)

Babies need different nutrition from adults, and it is actually quite tricky (although possible) to get sufficient nutrients from an entirely plant based diet.
I know quite a few vegans and all chose vegetarian for their babies/toddlers. Vegan also becomes problematic at nursery/school because the vegan options are often either very processed or very poor nutrition wise.
Are you able to source eggs and cheese ethically? There are a few people local to me who keep their own chickens as pets and sell the surplus eggs. Plus a few ethical cheese companies, but we are quite rural. I appreciate that neither of those are vegan, but possibly a good compromise to ensure that baby gets enough calcium.

Perhaps I am, but to be fair, I'm just going by the dictionary definition. If dairy is defined in Oxford as, "milk, cheese and other milk products", and milk is defined as "the white liquid that is produced by women and female mammals for feeding their babies" then it follows that human milk is technically dairy.

I'm not sure why it would be an issue for people to correctly call it a dairy product? Just like I think it's weird that vegans are getting annoyed by the fact that their breast milk is an animal by-product.

It's like arguing that a tomato isn't a fruit. Yes, people might usually treat it like a vegetable, but it is a fruit. There's no reason to argue it's not - it won't make it taste any differently. Yes, human breast milk might not be usually treated like other dairy products, but it is dairy, and an animal by-product. I'm genuinely curious why that's something people try to deny?

Just to add another layer of confusion I would disagree with your use of "by-product" to describe milk! A by-product is something made incidentally while making something else, that's not milk!

You seem to think you're objectively correct and we're for some bizarre reason denying reality. Have you heard of actual disagreement?

Also, it's not a by-product. You're not as good with the words as you think.

Whoops! Yes, 'by-product' was me getting distracted by another comment up-thread, when I meant 'product' 🫣 And I'm quite happy to change my own opinion when others are correct; for instance, I thought 'vegan' meant 'not consuming animal products' and therefore breast milk wasn't vegan. Someone pointed out that the vegan society defines veganism as not exploiting animals, so breast milk is vegan. That's great.

But I do think it's objectively correct that human milk is dairy, according to dictionary definitions, because that's the case. What I'm not sure about, is why that's a problem? But I suppose that shall just have to go unanswered.

Speaking for myself it's not a problem for you to use dairy to mean breast milk at all. I just think it's incorrect and a bit weird as "dairy" has such strong links to farming for me.

I’ve got 2 groups of friends who are raising their children vegan (2 kids per family). All completely healthy, eat really varied diets. The first family saw a nutritionist around weaning time as the HV wanted some reassurance. If you’re already vegan I’d imagine you’re clued up and already cooking a good variety of food. I know some vegans who only really eat alternative meat and I think then it would be a bit of a problem for young kids nutrition wise. My kids are veggie which people still have something to say about sometimes so I can sympathise if your friend is going on about it!

With DC2, we had a medial situation at play which meant he was essentially “vegan” due to allergies (and certain food refusals).
He still has a severe dairy allergy, but when he was little, he was also allergic to eggs & soya, and just refused all types of meat (still does for the most part).
He wasn’t a well baby or toddler. We had the guidance of a paediatric dietician, gave him all the right supplements etc under her guidance but he just looked so scrawny and unwell. I’d never have my child on such a restricted diet by choice.

Good lord. We're still going. Anyone who thinks that feeding your own child your own breast milk is not vegan, just fundamentally does not understand veganism.

Good luck as she gets older at birthday parties, play dates, and school…
My children have so many friends with severe food allergies that I really couldn’t be arsed inviting over a kid who was vegan as well. I already have to make gluten free and dairy free and nut free meals if both DC have their best friends over. Without gluten and nuts (and remember that all school-type settings are nut free, even for packed lunches) it would just be too difficult.
I regularly make vegan food for adult friends and am happy eating it with them. But for children who don’t like vegetables (much) and can’t eat nuts, it would be soul-destroying.

I normally end up vegan by default at kids parties for the reason you mention! We have to be kosher, halal, and dairy free (for allergies) to accommodate my son's friends so I find vegan to be the way to go anyway. I know you can get halal meat but often the kids won't eat it as their parents have taught them to not eat meat out the house just in case.