Dads using female communal changing room

[Strawberrryfields]

Not sure how I feel about this so looking for opinions and whether I should do anything.

A couple of times recently I’ve been changing my child after swimming and a dad has come in to change his child in the communal female changing room. It’s after lessons so only children changing. There are communal female, communal male and a number of individual cubicles. It gets very busy at peak times so at times you may need to wait for an individual cubicle.

It feels weird to me a grown man being in there and my instinct is that he should use the private cubicles, though he is clearly there with his child helping them get ready. I also understand him not wanting to take his child into the men’s communal changing rooms with random men in there but to me, he is a random man.

Should I say something? Would you? Chances are it’s just a normal dad changing his kid but I don’t feel entirely comfortable with it but not sure if IABU?

I can’t understand the posters who are talking as if all the young children in the women’s communal would be girls. Why would they be? They’ll be a mixture, in there on the basis that their parent is female. Equally children being taken into the men’s with a male adult carer could be male or female. So those citing that the reason he shouldn’t be there is because he’ll be around young girls are illogical.

He shouldn’t be there because it’s set aside for women. But I think no child should be getting undressed in a communal area with unrelated adults. The communality is the problem here.

There was a similar thread a few months back and I remain utterly baffled by the hysteria about children seeing a naked adult of the opposite sex. There were suggestions the daughters should go in the men's but with their eyes closed or facing the wall. Do people think that children's first sight of the other sex's genitals should be when they are old enough for a sexual relationship?!

Our leisure centre has men's, women's and then school girls and boys, which solves this problem. But when I change my DD in the girls I'm never sure what to do with my 7yo DS! It's full of dads about I feel awkward taking DS in in case he bumps into and embarrasses a classmate, so have to make him wait outside with a book!

This thread isn't about naked adults though. This is about young girls not having to share their changing space with an adult man.

Wouldn’t feel comfortable either

Is his child a girl? I can see why he’d rather her be there than in the men’s changing rooms

She can be in there. He can’t be.

If she can’t manage without help, he’ll either have to take her into the men’s or find another alternative which doesn’t involve him going into the female changing rooms.

Doesn’t say how old the child is, she might need help or have a disability. Also he might also not want to leave her alone due to her sense of safety or worried about her going missing - OP hasn’t exactly said he’s stood round staring at other people he might just be minding his business feeling awkward! I know men can be predators trust me (survivor myself) however I think there needs more context before she verbally accosts him in front of everyone

Then if she needs help he can take her into the men’s, that’s not a problem as long as she’s under 8 (and if she’s older than that, it’s still his problem to sort out)

I can’t believe you think it’s fine for an adult man to be in a place where 11 year old girls may be changing.

But it’s okay for his potentially 11 year old child to be in the men’s changing room??

You’re wrong. Parents aren’t a risk simply because they’re parents. You can’t apply group statistics to known individuals in that way.

Statistically, more people prefer drinking tea than coffee. Does that mean that you as an individual must prefer tea? No it does not. Population patterns or trends don’t determine individual behaviours or preferences.

If your 11 year old girl can't get changed by herself in the female changing room then she is either disabled and therefore uses the appropriate facilities or you really should be calling the safeguarding team for his dodgy behaviour...

No, an 11yo girl goes in the women’s by herself.

Why do people find this so hard to understand?

NRTFT, but at our swimming lessons boys over the age of eight are not allowed in the ladies changing room and vice versa, anyone who has an issue with it is given shirt shrift by the organisers.

Of course it’s not ok. The older girls could be in there without an adult who could feel very uncomfortable . Parents having sent them in in good faith to a female changing room. No man should be in there for any reason outside of a staff member who may need to enter if no female available, in which case they would knock and announce

Why on earth would a dad be changing an 11 year old girl or any 11 yo for that matter? Outside of asn where disabled facilities would be more appropriate. Most dc by age 6 can manage this independently

If there are boys in the ladies they presumably will be young. An 11 yo girl is far less likely to be bothered by a 5 yo boy being changed by their mum presence than an adult man

There is no reason a man should be in the women’s changing room. If there are cubicles he should use those if he doesn’t want to use the men’s. And the same with women going in the men’s. The gender of the adult dictates which room they use.

You're both not completely wrong. It affects probability. More people drink tea than coffee, so if I meet a stranger, I can expect that they would prefer tea - it doesn't mean they do.

The same would apply to the example by @Liquoriceallsortsmadear:
if A is a random person unknown to the child and B a random person known to the child, statistically it is more likely that B would cause harm. As it is overall not likely that either causes harm, it's very unlikely on an individual level - but that doesn't change the relationship.

When mine did swimming lessons the swim school sent out a message that children over 8 needed to use the correct changing room without an adult.
Children under 8 needed to go to the changing room that matched the sex of the parent changing them, so if I took my children they would come to the women's but if my husband took them they would have to go to the men's (I have a boy and girl).

Ok but where you’re both wrong - as I mentioned in both replies to @Liquoriceallsortsmadear, is that we’re not talking about an unknown individual. We’re talking about me, a known individual. Who knows they are not a risk. So the statistics and probability mean squat in this situation.

I also know that I prefer coffee, the fact most people prefer tea doesn’t change what I know is my own preference.

I don’t need to use guesses or statistics in relation to my own behaviour. We do this with strangers as we don’t know them so might use probability to weigh up what’s likely. Sometimes that will be right, sometimes that will be wrong.

In a roundabout way that’s brought us back to my original uncertainty about the men being in there. Most men aren’t creeps but some are. And while likeliness and probability can be useful tools decision making with unknown people, you also need to consider the stakes. The tea and coffee example is low stakes, if you bring a coffee drinker a tea it’s not the end of the world.

A situation involving children and potential safeguarding is higher stakes. In this case the ‘but some men are’ holds more weight as the potential harm to others needs to be factored in e.g. older girls who are not comfortable with his presence.

Safeguarding 101

You treat everyone who engaged in behaviour that's problematic as a safeguarding risk and treat them as having failed to meet safeguarding standards.

There is no 'giving the benefit of the doubt'

Why?

Because that behaviour puts children at risk and you can't tell the intent of an individual.

Anyone engaging in behaviour that breaks safeguarding puts ALL children at risk of you start making exceptions and going "well I know Joe, he's a good guy, just feckless". Because you then set a precedent for others to exploit this logic and your good will.

Anyone who behaves in a manner that a creep would has to be treated like a creep to stop creeps.

OP has said that in this slot there are only primary school children, 3-11yo and that the only options are women's changing rooms, men's changing rooms or a few cubicles that are always busy.

She hasn't said about age limit for either changing room, even when others have mentioned this, which suggests it might not apply in this slot, when only children are changing with the help of their parents or carers.

Presumably, this is a little girl, as otherwise she could change by herself. So the option would be to take her to the men's, where there are mostly boys up to 11yo and adult men supervising these, or take her to the women's, where most are girls and their mums. If I had sent my DH to the swimming pool with my then 6yo DD (for example), I'm not sure I'd be happy knowing he changed her in the men's communal area in front of all the dads and 3-11yo boys. But for that reason I might have suggested to wait for the cubicle or put a robe and get back home, if that's a choice. I think the complaint in the pool has to be about not enough cubicles.

Your approach to safeguarding puts children at risk - because you simply focus on the obvious problems. Safeguarding 101 is really: "It could happen here."

It's very easy to find those who behave oddly - but those who genuinely cause harm are very often clever enough to conceal their intend. They celebrate people like you who help to draw attention away from them.

If you keep all men out of female single sex spaces then you keep out those who can genuinely cause harm but are clever enough to conceal their intent as well as the obvious creeps who can cause harm

It's not MY approach to safeguarding.

It IS safeguarding.

HTH.