Dads using female communal changing room

[Strawberrryfields]

Not sure how I feel about this so looking for opinions and whether I should do anything.

A couple of times recently I’ve been changing my child after swimming and a dad has come in to change his child in the communal female changing room. It’s after lessons so only children changing. There are communal female, communal male and a number of individual cubicles. It gets very busy at peak times so at times you may need to wait for an individual cubicle.

It feels weird to me a grown man being in there and my instinct is that he should use the private cubicles, though he is clearly there with his child helping them get ready. I also understand him not wanting to take his child into the men’s communal changing rooms with random men in there but to me, he is a random man.

Should I say something? Would you? Chances are it’s just a normal dad changing his kid but I don’t feel entirely comfortable with it but not sure if IABU?

@Alex122022 what about the ruling and the law isn’t clear cut?

can you please explain it to me?

can you also, while you’re at it, explain the prevention of harassment legislation to me? Because 1st instance id warn him and tell the pool and keep a record, 2nd instance id go to the police.

thanks so much.

if you could also let me know where you got your law degree or other expertise from that would be great.

thanks again.

It's hardly hysteria.

Ok we’ve had swimming lessons this morning. The men are indeed changing their girls in the women’s just as the women like me are changing their boys in the men’s. In the scenario of a private pool where only very young children (max age 7) are changing, no risk of others changing etc, everyone is agreeing that this is the best approach. I agree that this would not be appropriate if there was any chance of adults/ older children changing, but that isn’t the situation for us so I think it therefore is context specific (rather than blatantly obvious that is should be segregated by adult sex only regardless of the context as some have suggested).

I’ve gleaned from this thread that the consensus is there are two issues with changing rooms - safety and dignity. Girls are changing in front of men in either scenario (either with their dads in the men’s or in front of other dads in the women’s), so it doesn’t make sense to me that girls shouldn’t change in the same room as men in the women’s, because the same people arguing this are saying it’s fine for them to do so if their dads take them swimming.

Some say their sons would feel uncomfortable changing in the same room as me, but this would also be the scenario if they were changing with their mums as also seems to be suggested is the best approach for young children so that also doesn’t make sense to me.

The only naked bodies are those of children, and when I used to change my son in the women’s, girls commented about there being a boy in their changing room, if they are expressing they are uncomfortable with a naked boy, why is that not valid?

In our specific context I am very happy that changing my son in the men’s is the best option.

This thread is fascinating - because most posters don't really seem to care about arguments as long as they express their obviously deep seated hatred and suspicion of men. Let's unpack a bit:

• I appreciate that the behaviour of the father was not ideal - he shouldn't have done this without making clear that others are fine with it (one can simply ask). Whether this was ignorance, a genuine mistake or something more sinister, we simply don't know. Statistically, it's most likely that there is no ulterior motive - and it is sometimes really difficult for fathers to do what the daughter wants and what is acceptable otherwise.
• Following on from that: telling the father (or someone else) that this is unacceptable seem to be a sensible approach - haunting the person out with screams of "paedo" definitely not. It is quite shocking to read how many posters don't seem to care about the wellbeing of the daughter - which shows that wellbeing of anyone is not really on their mind. They should perhaps consider how their child would react if their father would by called "paedo" in public - and the impact it will have on their wider life.
• The idea of the equality act and supreme court ruling is interesting, but it's more complicated. If this is a children's event - there is also a requirement that parents supervise children. As far as I understood, this was not a man in a changing room with adult women - but with children who required supervision.

FWIW - I do have some safeguarding experience, so I do appreciate the difficulties, and I do appreciate that there is a lot of discomfort (which will be worse if there are victims of abuse). But there is a different threshold for "harm", and trivialising harm in the way some posters do here is not helpful to anyone. From what I understand, this wasn't a man ogling other children - it was a father helping their daughter to change.

A quiet word to him (or people working there) would solve the problem, wouldn't it? A caring mother could even offer to look after the child if she's old enough.

There are many solutions that would defuse the situation without escalating it.

(And perhaps this offers some explanation for my POV: I grew up at a time and in a culture where communal changing rooms were very common and no-one thought anything of it.)

It’s a swimming changing where there are girls up to the age of 11 getting changed, who will be changing without adult supervision by a parent.

it’s a single sex changing room which means men are not allowed to be there, nor are women allowed in the men’s.

can you please answer my other questions that I already asked you. Thanks so much.

And I told you that the presence of the man would cause me harm.

how dare you dismiss my trauma by calling it discomfort.

suicide attempt. Self harm. Is that enough for you? That’s what it would do to me and has done to me before (and I’ve posted about it before here - what happened and what I did so don’t try to say I’m just making it up for this thread).

how fucking dare you.

My son is 11. No way is he changing in the male facilities on his own just yet.

However, the workaround is for me to solve, not the rest of the female populace. The cut-off age for boys with their mothers in the female changing is 8. So we either: use an alternative pool with mixed-sex changing; use a dryrobe and shower at home; or his dad takes him.

It's our problem to fix, not everyone else's.

I too have involuntary trauma responses - things I cannot control. Over the years I've seen many women on this site post similar issuse. The presence of men in single sex changing facilities harms women. No matter how loudly and insistently some women try to tell us it doesn't.

I'm sorry you should feel you have to justify this experience to a thread full of strangers on the www.

It's not okay. Never, ever. 💐

Didn't I just make clear that trauma (I referred to victims of abuse) makes this more complicated. I would tentatively with Taztoy's approach - if it was simply someone being ignorant, a warning will suffice (and if not, it's obviously no longer ignorance).

What I objected to were the - welcomed by many - suggestions to chase him out as "paedo".

And I will happily share my credentials if you share yours.

I asked you first.

Where has anyone recommended that? People have just said he should be asked to leave. Not to immediately start brandishing their pitchforks.

Indeed you did. But it doesn't matter, does it? We're both anonymous - it's impossible to verify.

For what it's worth: I'm truly sorry for your experience and in no way was my intention to dismiss or belittle it.

It might be sensible to end this here. It was not my intention to upset anyone but rather to provide a different perspective.

Trauma does not make it more complicated.

The law says that everyone is entitled to single sex spaces as a legitimate exemption. Changing spaces where people are getting changed, removing clothes and in a state of undress is one of the historic exemptions.

the equality act permits these exemptions.

in the past, stonewall and others have sought to argue that the single sex exemption in the EQ2010 also included those who had a gender that did not align with their sex.

The Supreme Court was asked to clarify the position and them there judges in the SC who are really just rank amateurs, they decided that when the EQ2010 was written, the ones what writ it meant sex when they said sex and didn’t mean gender.

So that means that where a space is categorised as single sex - for example a women’s changing room - it is single sex, and only women are allowed in.

the inclusion of children under the age of 8 is considered reasonable. Furthermore the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012 require a school to provide single sex changing for children over the age of 8, so it is reasonable to align provision at or about the age of 8.

I am legally entitled to a single sex space - workplace regs in work, 2024 building regs, 1992 regs for eg.

but the FWS Scotland ruling is clear that if a space is designated single sex then it has to be single
sex not gender. Which means, let one individual of the opposite sex in, you have to let them all in and thus the space is no longer single sex but mixed.

I would ask the pool to clarify the policy if there was any ambiguity and I would approach the man and ask him to leave and record it in some way - I wouldn’t photograph in a changing room but I would write it down and make a formal complaint to the pool. I’d tell the man that I deemed his behaviour to be harassment.

if the man was there a second time, I’d do the same but also report to the police. Because you need two instances to make a course of conduct. And that would be the second.

if parents want to campaign that the current set up isn’t meeting their needs and therefore they need something different, that’s up to them but nothing in that makes it ok for a man to break the law. And the pool to aid and abet that. And you can be fecking sure I’d be making a fuss.

It des. Because you’ve said I’m wrong in my interpretation of EQ2010 and the SC ruling in FWS.

You said it was complicated. Or words to that effect - I can’t look back on my phone.

I’ve explained why it’s not.

please do explain to me where I’m wrong.

thanks so much.

Someone did suggest shouting 'paedo' repeatedly, and this was approved by several other posters, one saying she didn't care if this caused trauma for the child who the dad was accompanying. So yes, people have been suggesting pitchforks in the first instance!!

There's clearly enough scope for confusion that's it's entirely possible for people to make an innocent mistake. Equally it's possible for someone to get the changing rooms mixed up (I have a couple of times accidentally walked into the gents!). It could be a dad who's taking his child swimming for the first time ever, who genuinely doesn't know the protocol. Yes, they should be told, but to shout 'paedo' at them is pretty offensive and disgusting, especially when it may have been innocent mistake.

They should simply be asked to leave.

Theres no need to shout paedo.

if they don’t leave right away, get a member of staff.

make a complaint to the centre/pool.

I do believe it is more complicated as there is also the aspect of the child. No-one would argue if this was simply a man - but this is a father supervising the daughter in a room where apparently other girls (presumably of a similar age) are changing.

It appears from what I have read know that some of the girls were older, which changes things.

What I recall was that you stated it was illegal and cited Equality Act and Supreme Court ruling, and I said it was most likely more complicated than that.

But: the Equality Act refers to organisations, not the individual - so it would have been the pool that acted wrongfully.

Agreed!

If a father behaved with the degree of entitlement that poster showed it would be the only way he would get the message. It was clear from the initial post that was shitstirring that it was a MRA type bloke. I also stated that.

He seems to think he has a right EVEN AFTER EVERYTHING all the women posted on here that he STILL should be allowed in there. Again proving the above point even more firmly.

We recognise it for being a creep. Correctly.

Women who identify a man who does not respect them and does not recognise their boundaries are within their rights not to be polite and not to mildly challenge.

They are not threatening violence. They are not using pitchforks. They are loudly shouting this man is a creep and doesn't respect the boundaries, privacy and dignity of women because he's a creep who doesn't respect the boundaries, privacy and dignity of women.

If anyone has a problem with that, they personally can get undressed in front of this bloke just like they expect little girls to to demonstrate how on board they are with him, but don't expect anyone else to do the same.

It is against the law for the pool to allow a man into a single sex space.

that means it’s illegal.

the man is also, if he goes in twice, committing an harassment against any one who finds his behaviour to be harassment.

He needs to take his dd into the men’s if under 8 or send her in alone into the ladies

@Alex122022 please can you tell me how it is more complicated than I have set out? And how “no men in women’s single sex spaces” and “no women in men’s single sex spaces” is complicated?

Thank You.

Pray explain. What is a "MRA type bloke"?

Your claim that it is obviously illegal - it is illegal for the pool not to provide such a space and enforce it. Whether it is also illegal for the man is a different question - and I don't think it is as clear cut as you think.

How would you establish it was illegal? You would have to bring him to court and prosecute him - for what?

But I don't really think this is needed as any decent person would simply leave once they realise they are in the wrong place - I don't think anyone would argue with that. And if they don't leave - especially once being told so by the pool - it would clearly be illegal.

Take the pool to court and take him to court for harassment as I explained.

what about that is complicated?