To think that hygiene standards in public spaces in London/UK are way below what's expected from a developed country

[Playdoughy]

I'll start with coffee shops, chains in particular - if it's past 9am, tables that are free are covered in empty cups and dirty bags from previous customers, surface wet, soiled, chairs covered in stains and crumbs - and this remains like this till end of day.
Toilets, even in nice restaurants are smelly, sinks full of hair, water (or worse) stains, at best you can expect to find the toilet seat wiped - maybe. But beneath it you'd find urine and feces weeks old, the actual toilet bowl stained, at best you'd expect the clean bowl but a heavy build-up under the rim. Floors, walls - that seems to be cleaned only when the establishment is first open.
And people don't seem to mind, people don't seem to clean behind themselves either...
The only exception are 5 star hotels really, if you can even call that a public space.

I am mentioning this as a heavy contrast to some parts of Europe for example, where tables get cleaned behind every customer even in chains such as McDonald's or Starbucks - these actually look inviting, clean and airy. Toilets are airy, clean and properly washed every few hours (not just checked for dead bodies and a tick on the schedule hanging on the door). Yes, you can find a filthy toiled but it would be fresh stain clearly coming from a person without any manners visiting in the last hour or two post last clean.

Now, the reason why I am writing now after years living here and thinking that it's just simply a different hygene standard people got used to.
Few weeks ago, through work I found myself in an establishment akin to private club. It is a public space in the sense it is busy and frequently visited (although by a selected group of members), and after queuing for a toilet I found myself in a public toilet that was actually proper clean.
So I realised - the hygene levels here are very high, it's just that it only applies to a selected group of people - while the assumption is that your average person should be completely fine with sitting on a stained chair or feeling like they are walking through a sewage if they decide to visit a toilet during their meal in a restaurant.
How, why and when has this become acceptable?

I think the British public are just getting more slobby in general, mess is always someone else’s to clean up.

I guess you would need to pay more so the shop could employ more staff -which also isn’t easy since we left the EU

That’s not my experience of cafes and other public spaces (some, of course, but not enough to make a general point) so I can’t really comment.

I don't disagree with you about the state of British toilets, but IME, toilets are no cleaner in Europe, and sometimes dirtier.

It's not just lack of staff though. People used to be a lot less messy and more considerate. Now more and more people couldn't give a shit and don't care about the mess they leave behind. Staff numbers could be doubled and trebled and still there'd be a mess because you can't have a member of staff clean up after every single person has had a drink/meal or used the loo. If people weren't so foul and dirty, occasional "clean ups" throughout the day would be fine!

A couple of months ago, we were in a chain pub/restaurant and there was a small group, maybe 2/3 adults and 3/4 children and they left the place an absolute pig sty - food all over the floor and nearby tables (after the kids had a food fight), spilt drinks on the carpet and chairs, etc. The staff had to close off the immediate area and then get out the vacuum cleaner and 2 or 3 of the waiting staff brought out a cleaning trolley with various cleaning fluids etc to scrub the carpet and upholstery, wipe the tables etc. It took them a good 15-20 minutes and then they had to leave the area roped off as the upholstery cleaning fluid was still wet and probably would take until the next day to dry.

Same with toilets. They can only ever be as clean as the last user leaves them, so even if cleaned every hour, if some neanderthal shits on the floor or loo seat, or stands on the loo seat with muddy boots, etc it's going to be out of use for an hour until the next clean. Unless you're in a very high end establishment, you aren't going to get a cleaner straight after every user!

It's ALL down to disgusting people who don't give a shit! Yes, less cleaning is a contributory factor, but no "normal" public space can have cleaners following every customer. It's just common courtesy for people to be a bit more careful! In cafes etc., it takes just a few seconds to put all the wrappings/leftovers etc onto one plate and group plates/cups back onto the tray etc - no one expects a customer to wipe down after themselves, but stacking etc should be the norm. In places like supermarket cafes where there are stacking units to put your trays and crockery etc., no excuse at all for not clearing your tables after you've finished!

I lived in rural Sussex for years. It was just as bad there. The public have just got more slobby. 🤷‍♀️

I don’t look under the rim nor would I know how old the stains are 🤢

You clearly need to frequent a better class of coffee shop etc. Independent shops are always better kept than chain ones IME.

Not in my experience. I've been into some very bleak private/small/independent cafes etc that don't seem to have been cleaned in weeks and don't have things like loo roll, soap, hot running water, etc. Generally speaking chain cafes/restaurants are better, but still often pretty grim but more from being messy/dirty and usually do have loo roll, water and soap!

I do agree - one big difference I noticed hugely from when came back from living in Copenhagen

We avoid pigsty establishments and I've always believed that clean toilets and tables, cleaned windows etc., indicate care elsewhere. Too many businesses don't hire cleaners and expect staff to do what is, imo, a vital role and they don't. I worked for a very large housing organisation that despite repeated complaints from staff hired the cheapest contractors who barely flicked a duster, let alone cleaned the toilets. Another result of a lack of care (and hands in pocket) in the UK, not the standards I was brought up with and sadly cleanliness is not a nicety, a lack of it causes issues elsewhere and we need more pride in our environments.

I agree with this tbh.

I went out for a colleague's leaving do a few weeks back and for some unknown reason the convo turned to how often people have a wash or shower. One of our colleagues said quite proudly that she showers about every 10 days and does her hair then. She did say that she washed her pits and feet every second or third day or so 'in the sink'.

I've always thought she was a bit wiffy tbh. Most of the others said they wash more than that, but the general consensus was about every third day.

Combined with the apparent acceptance of people turning up to Asda in their pyjamas, and the extraordinarily matted hair of a few Dcs I see in my younger son's class.... well. It disgusts me tbh.

I don’t recognise the Britain you’re talking about. Maybe it’s just the places I go, but toilets in pubs and restaurants are always very clean. There’s sometimes a coffee cup left on a train table, but that’s happened for decades.

Generally I find all public toilets on a varying level of mildly grim but not dirty to filth and disgusting.

the reality is that other a quick tidy, people in service don’t want to clean as well as we’ll deal with twats all day. And the likelihood is their manager didn’t either so they’re not that fussed about enforcing it.

also, phones. The constant lure of distraction or lack of proper focus on task. Means lots of things are half done.

Yeah I have heard people say they just wash their armpits and the soap does the rest
never wash their feet
don’t need to wash their bum as “toilet paper takes care of it”

Omg.

I agree, OP.

I mean I don't disagree that a lot of places aren't well looked after. But I'm pretty well travelled and definitely wouldn't say the standards are notably higher across most of Europe with a few exceptions.

What I do notice though is that there is a clear absence of people allowing their children to throw food on the floor and just leave it there.

No, sorry, I've seen mould infested or unkept toilets all across the board.
Ok, looking back at some Michelin star restaurants - they do stand out.
But surely an average person is not expected to pay 250 per meal just to have access to a toilet that meets basic hygiene standards.

As I've mentioned, I lived and worked in other parts of Europe where even the basic of basic chains have airy, fresh, clean and well stocked toilets as a standard.

Girl, where the fuck are you eating out? Sinks full of hair and poo on the toilet seats? Sound like crack dens.

Not where I am 😳

I agree,it's pretty grim these days everywhere.

Yep, we’re a nation of absolute slobs. You see it everywhere, people who can’t be arsed to pick up their crap and clean up after themselves.

Not public as such but I work in an office full of educated professional adults. Yet sometimes the toilets are left in such a state you’d think an escaped baboon had paid them a visit.

Really just depends. Restaurants here arent too bad. But lunchtime wetherpsoons etc will have plates on all tabkes.
There was crap on the toilet wall at chesington!
I went in the toikets at bowling once and this one was rank all the toilets had skidmarks
What used to gross me out was kids shoes on soft play table - yuck!!!