To think that hygiene standards in public spaces in London/UK are way below what's expected from a developed country

[Playdoughy]

I'll start with coffee shops, chains in particular - if it's past 9am, tables that are free are covered in empty cups and dirty bags from previous customers, surface wet, soiled, chairs covered in stains and crumbs - and this remains like this till end of day.
Toilets, even in nice restaurants are smelly, sinks full of hair, water (or worse) stains, at best you can expect to find the toilet seat wiped - maybe. But beneath it you'd find urine and feces weeks old, the actual toilet bowl stained, at best you'd expect the clean bowl but a heavy build-up under the rim. Floors, walls - that seems to be cleaned only when the establishment is first open.
And people don't seem to mind, people don't seem to clean behind themselves either...
The only exception are 5 star hotels really, if you can even call that a public space.

I am mentioning this as a heavy contrast to some parts of Europe for example, where tables get cleaned behind every customer even in chains such as McDonald's or Starbucks - these actually look inviting, clean and airy. Toilets are airy, clean and properly washed every few hours (not just checked for dead bodies and a tick on the schedule hanging on the door). Yes, you can find a filthy toiled but it would be fresh stain clearly coming from a person without any manners visiting in the last hour or two post last clean.

Now, the reason why I am writing now after years living here and thinking that it's just simply a different hygene standard people got used to.
Few weeks ago, through work I found myself in an establishment akin to private club. It is a public space in the sense it is busy and frequently visited (although by a selected group of members), and after queuing for a toilet I found myself in a public toilet that was actually proper clean.
So I realised - the hygene levels here are very high, it's just that it only applies to a selected group of people - while the assumption is that your average person should be completely fine with sitting on a stained chair or feeling like they are walking through a sewage if they decide to visit a toilet during their meal in a restaurant.
How, why and when has this become acceptable?

I don't actually think it is worse than it used to be, well not in my lifetime. Public toilets in the UK have always been disgusting. As a child growing up in the 70s and 80s we were all told not to touch anything in a public toilet and hover above the seat where possible. They were foul and always the absolute last resort if you couldn't possibly wait.

I also remember litter was a massive issue. There were all sorts of celebrity endorsed Keep Britain Tidy campaigns in the 1970s (I'm pretty sure ABBA appeared in one of them) trying to encourage people to be less disgusting!

Dreadful! I'm sorry your DH has to deal with that, you should be able to be safe in hospital without having to worry about infections. 💐

It's the latest generation, it's not their problem, always someone else's. As a child of the seventies I was taught the following:-
Sit up at the table and don't put your elbows on the table!
If by accident you spill something, clean it straight away.
When going to the toilet, leave it as you would want it to be found.
Basic manners and standards really!

Completely disagree @Bagpuss1200 ! Firstly, the 70s were just as foul, secondly, although I disagree with your point, who were responsible for teaching the latest generation?!

This post was brought to you by someone who has clearly never used a public toilet in France.

The place that surpsied me recently was Cologne - I arrived on a Friday aftrrnoon and the city centre was like an open air bin and it never really got any better.

Oh, come off it. We still have too many people chasing too few jobs. Staffing issues result from companies employing the minimum possible staff, and expecting total commitment and flexibility from them (ie. available early to late, 7 days a week). I remember pre-2008, you could walk into service jobs. Now it's a lot harder to get those same jobs and a lot more is expected from you!

(I realise some people think foreigners should have to do the crappy jobs for terrible pay and working conditions, but no one should be treated that badly by a workplace. Even if it makes the middle classes' coffee cost more).

ETA - Forgot the point of thread, oops! Was going to say I've not noticed toilets or cafes being worse, but litter on the streets is worse. Also niceties like plants in public spaces, all gone. I live in an extremely poor council area though - I suspect this will differ wildly by area and result from the way council funding changed. Frankly I think we should do away with council tax and councils should be centrally funded according to need.

yanbu.

I lived in London for all of the 80s, perfectly civilised, no problems at all.

Returned to working in the capital in 2021. I went on the Northern Line once. OMG, it was disgusting. From that point on I walked everywhere I could. That and the filth & stench of unisex loos. Horrific 😩😩

I left that role in 2024 and have retreated to the clean air, traditional single sex loos and civilisation of rural Hampshire.

I hate public toilets and try to avoid them best I can.

I used to like the toilets that has someone actively working in them keeping them lovely, and was always happy to give them 50p or similar for making it more pleasant.

The new thing of unisex toilets is also revolting as there is always piss on the seat!!

And yes, I've seen many a revolting european toilet, mostly without seats etc.

I recently went to a toilet in a John Lewis, I specifically went to the John Lewis cafe for a coffee knowing/thinking I would get a decent loo for a wee. But it was revolting too, but not just the cleanliness, the white walls were disgusting. It would take a handy person half a day to freshen them up at very minimal cost. Just a few coats of white paint. I was going to write and complain but couldn't be bothered in the end.

You've described this much better than I have - exactly that. The layers of built up dirt showing that deep cleaning literally never happens.

We don't have too many people chasing these jobs. The hospitality industry is chronically short staffed, for a variety of reasons.

There do need to be better wages and conditions but I suspect also some of it is simply the nature of the jobs. People increasingly value flexibility in their work. But these are jobs that have to be done in person, at set times, sometimes quite unsocial hours.There are going to be people who could potentially do them but would choose something lower paid and less inconvenient even if the money were better, so it might have to be a really substantial pay increase.

I've been, and I agree - some places in France are equally grim. But I try not to compare or strive towards something that is equally bad. I compared this to other parts of Europe where the cleanliness standards were clearly better. And after realising that here in UK such clean places also exist (albeit reserved for certain parts of society)....I have to ask why is it not like that as a standard.
I've been to an otherwise lovely local cafe this morning - again, toilet facilities just disgusting.

@Playdoughy

Don’t even get me started on the way some people leave the toilets. It makes wonder about their habits at home. It takes a few seconds to clean up after yourself.

I've said the same about visitors to my house, notably tradesmen, but others too. I've had tradesmen leave muddy/oily footprints on the loo seat (heaven knows why more and more people seem to need to stand on loo seats these days!), another who wiped his arse on the towel (when there was plenty of loo roll), skid marks left (despite there being a loo brush), wee on the floor, shitty hand prints on the wall, etc. Some people are absolute pigs! If they can't keep things clean in a customer's home, heaven knows what their own homes are like as it's clear they're completely oblivious to the mess they make.

Not in the places I frequent. I went for a weekend in London a few weeks ago and whilst the streets were dirty, pubs and restaurants I went in were all fine. Even the toilet in the station was clean.

Why don’t you comment on trip advisor or fb

I used to work in Starbucks (UK) and we had to prioritise removing the dirty plates and cups and wiping the tables.
You were assigned to a specific task at the beginning of every day; tray bussing/ till/ drinks. Obviously if quieter you could step into other tasks.

Christ, I think OP needs to start frequenting places with better standards. I can't remember ever visiting the type of shitehole that she's describing.

I do enjoy the "the British are worse than everybody else at everything" posts though, so there is that.

I had cause to visit the public toilets at Charing Cross station last week - they were pleasingly clean.

We were at a comedy gig in a UK capital city in a well known theatre at the weekend. I was genuinely very shocked at the end, as everyone was queuing up to leave the venue, we saw litter everywhere - all over the floor, the seats….drinks paraphernalia, empty brown paper bags which the staff had delivered the drinks in and the plastic ponchos which had been issued (part of the comedians’s routine). What has happened to standards in this country and using a bin? There were bins outside the auditorium by the way. Totally agree that this doesn’t seem to be as bad on the continent. The sense of entitlement is off the scale here.

The filthiest cafe toilet I’ve experienced was in a Starbucks in Barcelona. I decided to hold on instead, it was that bad

@Ginmonkeyagaini work near there and the Charing Cross cleaners are very good. The station is usually very clean too.

I thought this last week when looking at our office toilets. We share toilets with another company on our floor. You can guarantee that by the end of the day there will be paper towels on the floor and skid marks all over the loos (despite there being poo brushes). I do think people have got worse. They just leave their mess for others and don’t give a shit!

I went to Japan recently and the contrast in cleanliness is stark . Here has become a cesspit in a lot of places . Filth and neglect everywhere but we no longer have a culture where people look after and take care of their surroundings.

I find that most of the pubs and public toilets in the West Midlands have a decent level of cleanliness but sometimes the desks at post offices or council offices are quite sticky and I do wonder why there is so much litter in the parks.

Though I must say that the Monday after Blue Planet was on air for the first time the park was noticeably cleaner and though there is still litter on a regular basis it's less than before Blue Planet.

We went to London last weekend and actually I agree op. None of the toilets had soap, not a single one. And they were all dirty. My 11 year old had to be cajoled to use. My 8yo also commented on the litter.

I agree. Most chain cafes are utter dumps by midday. I was in a European country recently and had to stop to use a public toilet by the side of the motorway. I was bracing myself before I went inside, expecting it to be like motorway toilets in U.K. and I was actually genuinely surprised by how clean it was. No graffiti, toilets were all clean and stocked with loo roll. It was a revelation.

I do think the general public are just scuzzy. When I was in New Zealand we visited a beach and there was a picnic area with a built-in gas barbecue there for anyone to use and enjoy. It was pristine - people obviously valued having it available and used it respectfully. If that had been in any public space in the U.K. it would have been vandalised and unusable. I swear we can’t have nice things because some people are just scumbags.

The streets are disgusting. There is nowhere that is free of litter and rubbish. I have a woodland park near me and the car park every morning is littered with crap, McDonalds, KFC, plastic bags filled with bottles, disposable vapes, and cans just strewn everywhere, water bottles filled with urine and best of all a pair of soiled boxer shorts obviously just thrown out of a car.

The worse part is watching the wildlife picking at this all - I watched a crow pecking at a barbecue sauce the other morning, even the wildlife’s now on UPF! Too many people are just lazy, inconsiderate slobs.