To think that hygiene standards in public spaces in London/UK are way below what's expected from a developed country

[Playdoughy]

I'll start with coffee shops, chains in particular - if it's past 9am, tables that are free are covered in empty cups and dirty bags from previous customers, surface wet, soiled, chairs covered in stains and crumbs - and this remains like this till end of day.
Toilets, even in nice restaurants are smelly, sinks full of hair, water (or worse) stains, at best you can expect to find the toilet seat wiped - maybe. But beneath it you'd find urine and feces weeks old, the actual toilet bowl stained, at best you'd expect the clean bowl but a heavy build-up under the rim. Floors, walls - that seems to be cleaned only when the establishment is first open.
And people don't seem to mind, people don't seem to clean behind themselves either...
The only exception are 5 star hotels really, if you can even call that a public space.

I am mentioning this as a heavy contrast to some parts of Europe for example, where tables get cleaned behind every customer even in chains such as McDonald's or Starbucks - these actually look inviting, clean and airy. Toilets are airy, clean and properly washed every few hours (not just checked for dead bodies and a tick on the schedule hanging on the door). Yes, you can find a filthy toiled but it would be fresh stain clearly coming from a person without any manners visiting in the last hour or two post last clean.

Now, the reason why I am writing now after years living here and thinking that it's just simply a different hygene standard people got used to.
Few weeks ago, through work I found myself in an establishment akin to private club. It is a public space in the sense it is busy and frequently visited (although by a selected group of members), and after queuing for a toilet I found myself in a public toilet that was actually proper clean.
So I realised - the hygene levels here are very high, it's just that it only applies to a selected group of people - while the assumption is that your average person should be completely fine with sitting on a stained chair or feeling like they are walking through a sewage if they decide to visit a toilet during their meal in a restaurant.
How, why and when has this become acceptable?

In terms of why, I'm guessing it's a combination of:

• Reduction in council budgets --> less money for street cleaning;
• Rise in business taxes --> businesses hiring fewer staff. Fewer staff means anyone off work and business is short-staffed, so cleaning will suffer;
• This is a very crowded nation - lots of people using services means they get dirty more quickly;
• Some people are filthy pigs who don't care - they chuck litter on the ground, out of car windows, fly tip, etc;
• There's been a general rise in selfish and inconsiderate behaviour in recent years and you see in all aspects of life - from bad driving, inconsiderate parking, rudeness to complete strangers, to people not cleaning up after themselves and thinking it's someone else's job;
• High levels of immigration from countries where being tidy and clean and respectful of your surroundings is not part of the national character;
• TBH, I'm not sure that tidy and clean and respectful of your surroundings is part of British culture any more - it used to be. People used to scrub their front steps and take pride in their neighbourhoods, but not any more.

This topic fascinates me (more than it should).

I think part of the problem is a lack of respect for ourselves and our community here in the UK. We still think that manual work, such as cleaning, is for the lowest valued people in society and therefore is beneath most of us. Other countries put much greater value on manual work and it is not seen as something slightly despised. Japan, which is nothing short of spotless, has a totally different approach to valuing and respecting cleanliness and those involved in keeping it that way. (Obviously there are other problems in Japan, but respect for community space definitely is not one of them.) Other European countries have a much stronger adherence to abiding by rules, Switzerland for example, so people don't litter or even put their laundry out on the wrong day, because the rules will be enforced.

I love that the UK is tolerant and we don't blindly follow rules but our outdated notions towards manual work and our respect for our community and public spaces need a massive kick up the arse. We should love our homes, neighbourhoods and workplaces and not want them to look like shitholes. We should all respect ourselves and our neighbours and customers enough to want them to see our environments reflecting our own respect for them!

On a similar note...no handwashing after using the loo!

I shop at a 'nice' supermarket (Waitrose) and the number of times I'm in the loo and hear another woman flush and leave, but no handwashing - it's really not good enough.

Even if you think YOUR hands are clean and you've just had a wee, you've touched the door handle, the flush handle, the doors to come in and out.

And then you're going out and handling unwrapped fruit and veg and putting it back etc on the shelf.

It's been grim for years.
When my family came to visit me in large UK city, they were gobsmacked at the amount of rubbish around.

I feel like it's "someone else's job" and "why should I care when someone elsw should clean it" attitude. Where I grew up we take our rubbish with us until we find bin. And yea, still do.

"We are not rule followers" is and walways proper lame excuse for not caring about own surroundings.

The horror of Starbuks. in Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester still sits with me 4 years later,

Full on turds in both toilets, coffee all over the tables, crumbs, napkins on the floor. I walked out without eating or drinking anything.

Independent businesses like cafes or restaurants are much dirtier. At least chains do employ cleaners for the loos and communal areas, even if they don’t keep on top of clearing tables. Indie’s don’t get cleaned well because they don’t pay an actual cleaner but rather expect the general staff to do it who won’t want to

Admittedly it's been some time since I was in London, but bogs are not the example I'd have used for this argument. I have seen some truly awful examples in southern Europe and France. The cafes are nicer but the toilets are not!

Other than that, in the UK the answer is that when you're paying enough to have staff dedicated to cleaning places, they're nicer. When you're not, they aren't. Workers are expensive, and also these are not very attractive jobs.

I think your post is a bit of a generalisation OP but I have observed some appallingly bad habits on public transport and public toilets.
People using toilets and leaving without washing their hands.
People blowing their noses using their hands. Those germs are then transferred to areas that the public are inevitably touching.
Totally grim. I simply don't understand how some people think that this behaviour is OK

@zurigo There's been a general rise in selfish and inconsiderate behaviour in recent years and you see in all aspects of life - from bad driving, inconsiderate parking, rudeness to complete strangers, to people not cleaning up after themselves and thinking it's someone else's job

I agree. It's been getting worse for the last 2-3 decades. So many people just don't give a shit about other people anymore. A lot of it is because there are no sanctions/punishments anymore since the police/council and other authorities have basically given up and only go after the "easy" targets.

Yes, I agree. It's why I try to wear gloves in public - easy in the winter months, but of course, not in the Summer months. I also always carry some hand gel/sanitiser and use it regularly throughout the day for when I can't wash my hands properly. It's all very grim when you open your eyes and observe the behaviour of lots of other people on public transport, in public loos, and in shops/cafes etc coughing and sneezing into their hands, etc. Urgh!! Never used to be so bad as most people used to make an effort.

If people didn't act like animals in toilets, there'd be less need for staff to clean up after them. Of course "accidents" happen and toilets will always need to be cleaned up periodically, but a lot of the filth is deliberate and careless so could be avoided if the person actually acted like a human and not an animal!!

Same with making an effort to tidy up the table after a meal in a cafe etc. Takes no time at all to stack the crockery and put wrappers and bits of food on the tray/plate, and maybe use a paper napkin to sweep up the crumbs from the table but so many arrogant sods just leave their mess behind for the next customer to tidy up for them or cause the cafe staff to clean up after customers meaning longer queues to be served etc.

None of which affects the truth of what I wrote. People could behave differently, enough do not, so it's a question of whether you as a customer are willing to pay.

Not sure if it’s changed but a couple of years back I was shocked at how bad the toilets in Liverpool St Station were. Understandably they do have a lot of users but there were a few cleaners standing around on their phones. Worryingly I also witnessed lots of people coming out of the toilet and leaving without washing their hands 🤢

@Priceyyy

Worryingly I also witnessed lots of people coming out of the toilet and leaving without washing their hands

I think that's now common/the norm everywhere sadly. My DH always says barely anyone washes their hands in men's loos after a wee, and probably only half after using a cubicle. I don't see it quite so bad in the women's loos, but certainly a fair proportion don't wash their hands after coming out of the cubicles and then touching the door handles etc. Really grim. I try to wear gloves or use a tissue to touch the door handle when exiting loos and prefer the larger ones, like at motorway service stations and some bigger shopping centres, which are open so no door between the sinks and the main concourses.

I actually prefer loos in motorway service stations and big shopping centres as they do tend to be cleaner, whether that's because they have more cleaners or fewer "dross" using them, I don't know. Railway and bus stations are universally grim, as are town centre shops/supermarkets/cafes etc.

Standards have plummeted. It’s very very sad.

I often get to a cafe and find tables are littered with dishes, crumbs, napkins, cutlery. I wonder who leaves their table like this? I always tidy my dishes into a neat pile for the server to collect before I leave a table. It's just automatic. Clearly everyone doesn't do the same but that surprises me!

I know in my (chain) coffee shop the hours have been slashed dramatically. We used to have 6 on per shift but now it’s 2/3. We used to get half an hour to set up, and half an hour to shut down. Now we get no time at all.

If we close areas to clean customers complain, and we are told we cannot do it during opening hours. Yet we have no time at the end of our shifts to deep clean.

If we have a queue out of the door we are told that they are priority, not cleaning tables. If we clean tables and leave a massive queue we are told off.

Believe me, the staff are as frustrated as the customers

I've noticed that Costa rarely clean tables after they're cleared, so you're left with an empty table that's covered in crumbs and wet rings. I haven't noticed dirty ladies' toilets but I don't like unisex toilets because so many have wee in the seat, floor or back of the toilet (presumably because so many men can't aim).

Can't say I recognise this at all. And I'm certainly not eating at fancy places last few places I've eaten out at have been perfectly clean. The only time I've encountered dirty tables is when somewhere is so busy, we're grabbing a table as soon as someone leaves. And even the staff invariably come round and clean it not long after.

I do think we have a real problem with littering, dog shit and filthy public transport though.

Yes, I do the same. Lots of other people do too if you look around. In some supermarket cafes, service stations, rail stations, fast food places etc., they have stacking areas where you can leave your rubbish and/or put it in separate recycling bins, so really easy to clear up after yourself and leave the table clear, which I always do when provided, but still, so many lazy neanderthals just leave it all behind on the table for some other poor sod to clean up after them. You can lead a horse to water and all that! It doesn't seem to matter to them how easy it is or what provisions have been made to clear up after yourself, they just don't give a shit. Probably the same kind of moron who drops litter on the street and chucks rubbish our of moving cars onto the roadside!

I was in a restaurant where a couple changed their child's pooey nappy on the seat and left the dirty nappy on the floor under the table. Another time I was on a cruise on Lake Windermere and a woman changed a baby on a table that people eat off. I can't believe how filthy some people are.

Second your post on loos at St Pancras. I made an official complaint a few weeks ago. They were filthy, rubbish on floor, several loos out of action. It was obvious no one had checked on them for hours, no probably days .

What gets me are the (usually) council run ones where you have to pay to gain admittance, typically 20p or so, but they're still filthy and often with no loo roll, hot water nor soap. Clearly the money not being used for hygiene/cleanliness!

(No, I don't mean the private ones contracted by councils, I mean council operated ones, often in council car parks, tourist locations, etc.)

People are disgusting and it's been getting worse all the time, especially since the end of covid lockdowns, people seemed determined to make up for the time they spent not spreading germs by spreading 5 times as many! Everywhere's filthy, from cafes to hospitals, people are open mouth coughing in your face in public, I'm quite fed up of it!

Yes, I agree especially re hospitals. My DH has cancer so we're in and out of hospitals pretty regularly and the toilets are usually really gross, even within the wards, not just the public areas such as out patients and general corridors. Fair enough, ill people are more likely to have "accidents", but it's not just that, it's muddy/oily footprints on the loo seat, no hot water, often no loo rolls or soap. Hospitals should be clean and hygienic but it's no surprise that viruses spread through them like wildfire as patients/visitors don't seem to care about basic hygiene, nor do the staff.