ICE and your young adult child

[user3867599]

DC is a dual citizen (US and UK), just finished university and is living and working in a city in the US where ICE is about to be deployed.

What would you say to them?

@user3867599 I honestly don't know if what I'm about to say is a valid thing in the current situation

I was lucky enough to do some work in the US. I always carried identification with me but I would have done that in any country that's not mine. I do actually carry my driving license with me all the time here, even though I don't drive anymore.

I am not white, (I'm often mistaken for mixed race although I'm actually not) and the first few times I went there for work, I never thought about the colour of my skin.

I did think about it later when all the race stuff seemed to really take off - I mean, suddenly race baiters and Grifters began making a lot of money out of it.

It was a lovely place to work and to just be in generally.

I did see a couple of places being raided by immigration enforcement in NYC in the 2000s and I just walked past - as I would do in the UK. There's a business that's been closed in my local High Street and we are fairly sure that that's the reason why it was closed though there doesn't seem to be much information publicly available. They were surrounded by police and closed very suddenly. There were customers inside at the time.

My expereince in the US was pre-lockdown so wearing a suit for work was pretty normal and I probably just looked like a regular person going to work or being on a lunch break.

It wasn't something I thought about.

I have expressed puzzlement on here about the current situation because there seems to be either a lot of misinformation going round, or things have changed so much in the last 10 years, that my opinion and experience is invalid. It may well be - 10 years is a huge amount of time in terms of political and societal change.

I hope your DC enjoys America. I would certainly have gone back for a visit by now if not for elderly parent issues. I have never felt anything other than 100% welcome there.

editing to add - sorry MN is loading really slowly and I can't see all the posts in one go - if he wants to protest, he runs a very different risk than he runs in this country.

Law-enforcement carry guns in the US. It would not occur to me to interfere with law-enforcement in the US - ever.

I suppose the only thing you can tell him is to think very carefully about where he's getting his information. There is a shocking clip, which appears to be correct, with Renée's wife saying what sounds like "Why do they have real bullets?"

I'm baffled by this. Why would they not have real bullets? I just assume any law enforcement person I come across in the US is armed, including the ones that just say hello, good morning, etc when you're walking out of your hotel. Which I find they did quite a lot. It was all fine with me.

Well - the people who hid jews were able to do that presumably partly because they didn't get themselves shot or identified as anti-government activists in protests early on (whether or not it would have made any difference if every person like that had protested early on is another question).

Anyway, I don't know enough about the details of the US situation to know about the risks and benefits of protesting right now in the way people mostly are. It's an eternal dilemma I think - timing when to speak up based on whether you think that's going to help more than working quietly in a different way.

Do you want to encourage him to protest?

I live in the US and at least one - possibly two - of my children would go to protests and the third works with marginal communities on the street so often would be in a situation dealing with police etc.

I tell them to be careful and to walk away from trouble if they see it escalating. Same advice I gave them growing up before all this ICE shit hit the fan.

This whole period is a lesson in who would collaborate, who would stand by and let it happen.

In terms of the world, I'm horrified. In terms of 1930s Germany, we don't need any fancy social experiments or psychologists. Just watch in real time.

It’s not worth him dying tell him to come home.

Don’t disobey any order given by ICE or argue with them.

If you think that they have exceeded their legal mandate, the time to argue that is in court, not by the side of the road when emotions are running high.

The brownshirts started out like this in clearing protests.....look how THAT ended up.

If police or ice say stop, stop.

I would say this too.

I cannot emphasize enough to you that this is a very dangerous time to be studying in the United States. If he appears at a protest or makes any statements on social media, he can and will be deported. And even the deportation will be vastly preferable to the days or weeks he may spend in a federal detention center leading up to it, and the strong likelihood of being injured by ICE agents during the arrest itself.

He must carry his documents with him at all times in case he is stopped and ordered to present them on the spot. If he is nonwhite, the risk is increased manifold, because ICE is known to stop people based on nothing more than their appearance and foreign accent. Numerous American citizens have actually been stopped and ordered to present proof of citizenship based on the color of their skin, and some have been detained if they are unable to do so. Bear in mind that in the United States, citizens are not even required by law to carry any form of ID.

He should avoid any location where ICE is thought to be present: there are groups on WhatsApp, Signal etc that provide warnings of this. That is also the reason people are always blowing whistles in the videos of confrontations: to warn others that ICE is nearby.

if by some mischance he does come in contact with an ICE agent, he should say nothing other than in answer to direct questions. Insulting them, talking back etc may be taken as an invitation to hurt him.

Carry your passport at all times. DH had a horrible threatening incident with under cover police on a train in California near Mexican border. Was a few years ago now. He’s white but they were still extremely aggressive and horrible threatened to arrest him!

@ByCyanMoose the OP's child is a US citizen.

I understand your dilemma Op. I think if it were my child (and it quite likely could - at school in North America not US. A decent person who is politically active in climate zone) I would emphasise them helping people targeted by ICE in the most effective way they can without getting into direct confrontation. So e.g. food deliveries to families scared to leave their property, financial aid, helping children get to school etc. I find that my children are way more clued in /cautious than me about being careful about political social media posts during university /job /visa applications etc etc. I would strongly discourage anyone from “direct” confrontation with these ICE agents as they are armed , poorly trained and seem to have a genuine disregard for the law and humanity. I’m a hypocrite as I’ve begged them not to visit the US (geographically close kids from their school used to visit at weekends) or apply to US unis (they would qualify for full financial aid from their school system). You can oppose fascism quietly and effectively up to a point when I guess we might all have to decide where we stand.

Ok I now see I missed that he is a dual citizen. Unfortunately, the only thing that changes is that he cannot be deported. The other risks are still very much in play.

I’m not sure ICE are differentiating in the mid west correctly

It very much depends on his accent and skin color. If they perceive him as “foreign” they will likely treat him that way.

The question of whether to get involved is an ethical one, since the US is after all his country. But I know that most activist groups will try not to place people who are at particular risk in situations where they are likely to encounter ICE directly. There are other ways, as has been mentioned, eg by delivering supplies to people who are afraid to leave their homes.

No but my advice to a US citizen would be different to advice to someone on a student or work visa (starting with I wouldn't come to the US on either of those visas right now). They cannot deport an american citizen. they can certainly make life difficult for them before that conclusion is reached.

Yes.

@user3867599 Nothing, live your life. I live in Chicago and nothing she changes about my day to day life because I don't go interfering with federal agents, blocking them with my car, screaming at them, shoving cameras in their faces, throwing stuff at them etc.

I know the media and social media etc all paint this picture like the average person in the USA is running around in danger but she absolutely not true, and majority of the so called protesters are professional protestors paid by interest groups.

Here is a reddit sub that may give more insight I tot everyday life. https://www.reddit.com/r/immigration/s/S2USTGPPOA

I am in Minneapolis, and we are getting the worst of it right now. I would (and do) follow Pallisers advice at 9:15 and Covid is... at 9:37. I do protest, but leave immediately when confrontation begins. ICE seem to shoot first and aim later, so there is no point in confrontation. People are volunteering to help with food deliveries, rides, etc. in amazingly high numbers, and that is reassuring. The big question is: What happens next? If I had an option, I would be out of the country ASAP

Nothing, live your life. I live in Chicago and nothing she changes about my day to day life because I don't go interfering with federal agents, blocking them with my car, screaming at them, shoving cameras in their faces, throwing stuff at them etc.

You'll be fine so. It will NEVER happen to you.

And are you saying that if you do the things you describe it is fair play to be shot dead in the face by law enforcement and be called a "fucking bitch" immediately afterwards?

There's actually nothing wrong with protesting, the issue is where so called protesters start being aggressive, attacking and impeding federal agents.

Blocking federal agents with your car, throwing stuff at them etc is illegal and NOT protesting.

Many of those so called protesters are paid from extremists leftist groups, that's different from the average American protesting which they have the right to do peacefully. You can see the groups "training" how to attack and frustrate ICE agents online.

I would tell him to come home. But it that isn't an option, and I understand that it may not be, make sure he understands the difference between ICE and US law enforcement personnel. US police are trained, effective, professionals. THey may make bad calls, be racist, make mistakes, be shit at their jobs, be actual murderers (George Floyd) etc but for most the training is still there.

ICE are untrained, recruited from those who feel hard done by and are more likely to be ideologically driven. They are therefore unlikely to have empathy, or de-escalation skills, and far more likely to make mistakes. If challenged by an ICE agent he should then be absolutely clear and transparent in his actions and if the situation looks like escalating aim to get actual law enforcement to attend rather than to get away.

My SIL lives in Boston, which I thought was as liberal as it comes, having lived there myself. Bad things are happening there. The Hispanic community is living in justified fear.