To feel weird about Brownies because there’s a boy there?

[ElizaDolittle124]

Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group. Another parent turned up with a younger sibling who immediately said loudly ‘mummy why is there a boy here?’ The mum was v flustered trying to explain he wanted to join in and the child just said ‘but brownies is for girls’ until she told him to be quiet.

I just feel a bit weird that I didn’t know. The whole reason we joined brownies was for the girls only environment, which my daughter was really excited about. Feel like I should have just put her in the scouts instead now (which would have been more convenient). But my friend is one of the brownie leaders and she encouraged me by promoting the idea of a girl’s only space.

There’s a brownie camp sleepover thing next month where they sleep in dormitories. My daughter can’t go anyway as we have other plans that weekend, but it’s got me wondering how they’re going to arrange that? Surely they can’t have the boy sleeping separately in a room on his own, but equally he can’t go with the girls?

No she wasn’t. She mentioned physical assault too.

A lot of families are still very much into gender stereotypes - people get cross about shops selling pink stuff for girls etc without realising that plenty of other people are absolutely fine with it.

And prioritising the boys is standard in many families.

It doesn't help that sporting opportunities for girls fall off quickly if you aren't particularly good. I know this happens to boys too, but there is often a range of levels to play in for them, whereas there may just be one level for girls.

No it doesn’t give the right to damage other kids which single sex spaces very much do.

So they can choose not to go to single sex groups. Why are you finding that so hard to understand?

My friend who hated single sex activities never went to brownies. No harm done to anyone.

Thank you, that's very interesting. For some of those, I think there is some justification for thinking they would mostly be a female or male job. On here I've seen a lot of mums say they'd want a nursery teacher to be female for safety reasons (as very small kids can't report abuse so easily) but stuff like primary teaching is different. And firefighting is a very physically strenuous job that would be more likely to be too hard physically for a woman to do than for a man (though obviously there are women who can and do do it!).

But obviously that's different to saying they're a 'male job' etc

Football, dance, nursing etc : that's a real shame.

How can we help with these stereotypes? I'd hope media like the lionesses, for one, should help. Male dancers are certainly well represented in dance coverage but I guess the archetype remains female..and vice versa for other jobs.

Oh right so girls that don’t fit the stereotype of what girls are supposed to be get left out even more- no!

I understand your daughter had a horrible experience but it's unfair & inaccurate to say all girls schools are automatically bad for non stereotypical girls. I went to a girls' school and there wasn't much pressure to be particularly girly. And is this pressure necessarily weaker among girls who go to mixed schools? Surely in at least some cases the presence of boys makes girls feel more pressure to be feminine? Obviously it's unfair to generalise about either kind of school.

Get left out more- how? In the case of Brownies, there's a mixed option: Cubs.

That could be said about bullying in a lot of schools where the culture of the school has not been controlled properly. In many schools, bullying is not widespread to that degree.

Was discipline poor generally in this school? Was the bullying problem confined to girls?

Maybe they want to be with their friends , girls
that don’t fit the stereotype of the girl pack shouldn’t be sidelined, questioned re how they look, dominated , squashed and all the things that happens in all girl environments which unfortunately many girls experience. It’s not healthy, doesn’t prepare for life and is frankly an unpleasant toxic environment which shouldn’t be encouraged .

That's not what I said, at all! They can choose to attend a group, or not. If they join and decided they don't like it as it's too twee/girly/whatever, then they can look for a group that's a better fit.

I wouldn't join a cheerleader squad and then complain I don't like it and that they should change to doing woodcraft. I'd join a woodcraft group.

I’ve seen this girl behaviour in many many schools and discussed it with many people. We all know it happens . Watch any playground, you’ll see it. It’s far worse for many of the poor girls stuck in all girl environments .

No there shouldn’t be groups where girls get excluded because they don’t fit a stereotype. Look at how you justify it. Not ok. Look at the op freaking out because somebody is attending who doesn’t look like a girl. It’s vile and not ok and this new rule is going to cause a large amount of damage. I hope the many leaders who disagree with it walk.

Male dancers are certainly well represented in dance coverage but I guess the archetype remains female.

A lot of traditional dances - morris, sword, Highland, sailors' for example - were originally men's dances but are now also done by women.

I agree girl bullying is widespread, but I still don't think it's as impossible to address as you imply..

When you reported the bullying to the school & Girl Guide group, did they just ignore ? Or discipline ineffectively? I understand if you'd rather not discuss.

If you don't mind discussing (I understand fully if not) why did your daughter go on to another single sex secondary environment after having the horrible Guides experience? Wouldn't she have preferred coed? Or was this primary school?

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then. Girls aren't being "excluded" of they choose too attend a different group instead.
If the other groups didnt exist then you might have a point, but they do. So people are free to choose the group that suits them best. Provided they meet the entry criteria that is. Which for Girl Guiding is (obviously) to be a girl. That is to say a female.

Yes, that's a good point.

I suppose when people think dance the archetype is ballet, where the model remains female-focused. It's a shame, I've done ballertmyself & seen boys have a lonely time. I can create more issues in professional ballet since companies may tolerate MeToo style behaviour since men being scarce gives them more leverage.

Can’t believe you’re justifying exclusion. Children shouldn’t be excluded from any group. They’re children.

Exactly : and surely Girl Guides now is not necessarily some 'hostile' environment for tomboys. I get posters say it was very girly in the past but that surely isn't the case now?

It’s brushed off as being bossy or forthright not bullying and it’s seen as acceptable.

Didn't have much choice as regards schools. Tax payers money should not be spent on single sex schools .

Someone isn't being excluded from a group if they're a girl who doesn't like all girls groups and prefers mixed ones. I get the issue if her friends are in it too but it's the nature of life friends will sometimes like different things. I would have liked the join the very popular cricket club many of my friends were in at school, but I hate cricket so I didn't. It would still have been nice to be with then as they seemed to have a lot of fun, but that's life.

It absolutely is hostile for tomboys as all girl environments don’t tend to like tomboys- they stand out more, don’t fit the stereotype. All girl environments are hostile for any girls that don’t fit the mould and that’s not ok.

That's horrible. This is not the case everywhere but wherever that happens, it needs to be resolved.

I understand the issue with schools. One of my own friends at school got on much better generally with boys, but there was no mixed option near enough .

It's a bit much to leap to 'taxes should not fund single sex schools.' There should be both options for areas.

They are being excluded if they stand out more as regards not fitting the stereotype of being a girl and are squashed and excluded as a result.

This surely often is true, but it's not necessarily like that.

Do girls in mixed environments treat tomboys better? If so, why?

Or is it more that tomboys would have the option of befriending boys in a mixed school?