To feel weird about Brownies because there’s a boy there?

[ElizaDolittle124]

Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group. Another parent turned up with a younger sibling who immediately said loudly ‘mummy why is there a boy here?’ The mum was v flustered trying to explain he wanted to join in and the child just said ‘but brownies is for girls’ until she told him to be quiet.

I just feel a bit weird that I didn’t know. The whole reason we joined brownies was for the girls only environment, which my daughter was really excited about. Feel like I should have just put her in the scouts instead now (which would have been more convenient). But my friend is one of the brownie leaders and she encouraged me by promoting the idea of a girl’s only space.

There’s a brownie camp sleepover thing next month where they sleep in dormitories. My daughter can’t go anyway as we have other plans that weekend, but it’s got me wondering how they’re going to arrange that? Surely they can’t have the boy sleeping separately in a room on his own, but equally he can’t go with the girls?

Blimey! My DD went to cubs and scouts, she wasn’t the only girl and no one turned a hair. Is this any different?

Yes scouting is a mixed sex organisation. Guides is a charitable organisation for girls. If it wants to change to mixed sex it could change like scouts did but they have chosen to remain single sex.

Yes. Because Scouts, and the associated younger groups, are mixed sex.

Brownies, Guides etc are not.

Ah I see, that makes sense. I can see how getting enough volunteers would be tricky now.

@ElizaDolittle124 if your friend is the Brownie leader why don’t you just ask her?

Yes.

Yes. You chose a mixed sex organisation to send your child to, and guides is single sex. If you’re Catholic and go to a Protestant church is all the same isn’t it, it’s Christianity? Probably a poor example, but the point is,if I am sending my daughter to a single sex organisation, I expect only that single sex. Boys do change the vibe, they are often pushier, more confident and dominate in younger groups. You chose mixed, great. You had that choice. You’re taking away others choice by saying you don’t a mind mixed sex group (cubs) some women want a single sex group (guides) and should have the right to that, same as you have the right to attend to mixed group

Another one whose DD was mistaken for a boy all the time when she was brownies age, including when she was wearing a dress or a bow on her very short hair, much to her bemusement.

At the same time, about half of my brownies had “boy’s” names - we had a Finley and an Eliot for example, so not even a name is always an indication of a child being male.

If all my grandsons had had long hair as toddlers, they would still have looked like boys.

Their features were not feminine or androgynous

Couldn't tell or made an assumption?

Their features in most cases

Societal expectations and assumptions

This

I wonder why it is boys tend to dominate in younger groups too? It reinforces the need for girls' groups.

But had you wanted a single sex organisation for her or if she had wanted it would you still be OK with that?

What if your DD was on a waiting list for a single set club and couldn't join because a boy took her place?

Yes, that's right. Encourage your child to go on a witch hunt so that all children conform to a gender stereotype. No short hair for girls or long hair for boys, because your daughter's "own eyes" should be the basis of how someone else should be allowed to cut their hair.

Yes I find it a very isolating existence, what a very insular world a child is being raised in if their parent can't cope with the fact their child is not around children exactly the same as them, seems like something popular around in the 1940s

Wow the horrific stereotyping on here highlights perfectly on here why single sex groups are simply not ok for children. Boys don’t have long hair, boys dominate - no, just no! I have both genders. My boys had long hair until quite old and my most dominant child was my daughter. Brownies and guides are clearly becoming hugely unhealthy places for children hence them not wanting to be dictated to by activists in the first place.

Yes, the dominant point is odd. I agree in teen years girls may feel pressure to behave in a certain way around boys. But 7yos?

It sounds almost like an argument that girls are naturally more submissive, which I'm unconformable with.

Wow, totally getting the wrong end of the stick. Brownies should allow girls to not conform to stereotypes, to climb, go camping, run around, shout and scream all with no one judging them.

It’s not a witch hunt to tell the truth. That implies an active campaign, which I doubt children this age are interested in. But if my children are asked if someone is a girl or a boy they should say what they know to be true. There’s no witch hunt in telling the truth, if they are wrong you can correct it, which is exactly why the mum
should just ask her friend, but there are issues around children being told to lie about basic facts, the loss of faith in adults is real and in general it’s a safeguarding risk to train children to fudge the truth. We’ve seen that social niceties and politeness’s can seem like ‘be kind’ but they are actually dangerous in some situations (trans man raped on male mental health ward)

The OP thinks it is a boy, she’s probably right. Lots of PP have said maybe it’s a girl, but no one is saying children must have gender stereotypical hair. It’s a common quick-glance way people in our society tell if someone is a boy or girl, it’s not right or wrong, just like you can tell someone’s age at a glance.

No not getting the wrong end of the stick. Read the thread.

Oh and FYI some of the biggest judgement and vicious bullying my daughter was ever on the receiving end of was at Brownies, Guides and her all girl secondary school. Same girls seemed to follow her everywhere and take it on themselves to boss, bully, judge and tell her how she should be behaving. They were worse in the all girl environment as were others groups of girls. It’s dog eat dog in all girl environments hence the high levels of MH struggles in such toxic environments. You either conform and fit in or get pulled apart which this thread very much illustrates. She was a girl who liked to climb, run, get dirty etc and she and was stamped on by these girls who had very strong ideas re how girls should behave. She wasn’t the only one told how to behave either. The whole sector is going to get a whole lot worse. I’d swerve massively if anybody is considering Brownies and Guides for their daughters. In hindsight we should have done Cubs but the list was longer ( for good reason) and stuck to co Ed education.

This is an AI answer, but it corrects the many who are saying they can tell if a young child is male or female. You can't.

^At age 8, facial differences between boys and girls are minimal because puberty hasn't significantly started, with most sexual dimorphism appearing later; studies show prepubescent faces are very similar in shape, with any observable differences often linked to overall size or genetics rather than distinct gender traits, though slight variations in lip prominence might appear.
Key Points for Age 8:
Similarities Dominate: For most children around age 8, faces look quite alike, making it difficult to distinguish sex based on appearance alone, especially with similar clothing and grooming, says Reddit users.
Size vs. Shape: Research indicates that when differences are found in younger children, they're often about facial size (boys might be slightly larger overall) rather than fundamental shape, which is very similar.
Early Puberty: A small percentage of children might enter early puberty, which can introduce subtle changes, but these are not universal at this age.
Hormonal Influence Later: Significant facial changes linked to hormones (like brow bone, jawline, lip fullness) become much more pronounced during the pubertal growth spurt, which happens later (around 10-12 for girls, 11-12 for boys).
What Research Shows:
One study found no significant gender-linked differences in facial shape for 8- to 12-year-olds, only size-related ones, notes ResearchGate.
Differences, such as a fuller upper lip in girls or a more prominent lower lip, are observed in younger age groups, but these are subtle and not universally present, according to ResearchGate.
In summary, at age 8, facial differences between boys and girls are generally minor, with distinct sexual dimorphism developing as puberty progresses.^

At the time that the co-ed movement started in the private school sector it was to some extent to do with the fact that girls’ grades were better than boys so having girls in your school made your outcomes look more appealing to perspective parents!
I agree with you though, there are undoubtedly situations where just as girls benefit from being with girls (to be honest that isn’t always the case), boys benefit from being able to be themselves in a male only setting.
I suppose my point perhaps not very well made, was that Brownies was set up for girls and that girls should be allowed to have that single sex space. If Cubs has chosen to be a mixed sex space then that is absolutely fine but it doesn’t mean that boys should be allowed to join the Brownies.