To feel weird about Brownies because there’s a boy there?

[ElizaDolittle124]

Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group. Another parent turned up with a younger sibling who immediately said loudly ‘mummy why is there a boy here?’ The mum was v flustered trying to explain he wanted to join in and the child just said ‘but brownies is for girls’ until she told him to be quiet.

I just feel a bit weird that I didn’t know. The whole reason we joined brownies was for the girls only environment, which my daughter was really excited about. Feel like I should have just put her in the scouts instead now (which would have been more convenient). But my friend is one of the brownie leaders and she encouraged me by promoting the idea of a girl’s only space.

There’s a brownie camp sleepover thing next month where they sleep in dormitories. My daughter can’t go anyway as we have other plans that weekend, but it’s got me wondering how they’re going to arrange that? Surely they can’t have the boy sleeping separately in a room on his own, but equally he can’t go with the girls?

At the same age range people used to see my long-haired, slim sons and frequently assume girl. Puberty has now stopped that, but it carried on until about 11-12 until hormones make a difference.

Same with my own sons from birth. Oldest is about 11, and it has stopped. Middle is 8 and only when his curly hair is cut up to his ears that he doesn’t get mistaken for a girl.

It really wouldn’t bother me, tbh.

That’s your choice. You’re totally fine to feel that way. Girl guiding is specifically a single sex activity as per its charitable purposes. Anyone wanting a single sex activity is entitled to expect it to be single sex.

Eh ?
Its a scientifically proven fact that children have gender neutral faces up until about the age of 7.
There have been studies done which have proven people have no clue when just shown a young child's face what sex they are.

People take clues from hair style and clothing.

But they don't look identical

What?

Their families know what sex they are because they'll have seen them naked. That's how I know my children's sexes. If someone had whisked them away as soon as they were born, dressed them and I was somehow never allowed to wash them, change nappies or change their clothes I wouldn't know their sexes, would I?

I suppose a family might try to pretend a girl was a boy in order to get her some schooling if the father wasn't in favour of the ideology (can't imagine why anyone would pretend a son was a daughter) but that sounds like a very risky game. I don't know enough about Afghani society to know whether it would even be feasible. And obviously you'd be in big trouble once your girl started puberty.

What's the difference then? Why do people get it wrong so much when a boy has long hair or a girl has short hair?

A 7yo boy is unlikely to be 'unsafe' but I agree it should be single sex.

Hmm..when I was a child I think The Breadwinner is a book with that plot, only as a job to earn food, not school.

I also know the famous Egyptian singer Umm Kulthum was dressed as a boy when as a child she used to go round singing religious songs. Presumably for fear of those who'd disapprove? A much less dangerous setting though.

Exactly

You don’t know if they were a boy unless you saw their penis. My daughter plays girls football, but looks like a boy. Almost every week she feels humiliated as other parents ask loudly why we have a boy on our team. I always think, ‘what’s more likely, we are smuggling in a boy, or there’s a girl that rejects the stereotypical ideals of what it is to be female in 2026?’

I’m not sure if she will grow up to be trans, a tomboy or a typical female, what I do know is I want her to feel proud of who she is and supported by us, so we happily let her dress as she likes.

You're within your rights to check if the child is a boy or girl, but a quick text to the organisers confirming it’s an all girl group would be the best way to go, rather than jumping to conclusions and getting upset up it. Remember that at the centre of this is probably a little girl who feels misplaced and different.

That's a good point.

ElizaDolittle124

as other posters have said I think its best just to ask the leaders, it will put your mind at rest one way or the other

Really? How does a 7 year old girl look different from a 7 year old boy? Assuming same hair and dressed the same.

I agree.

We keep hearing about the problem of loneliness among boys and men. If Scouts had stayed boys only, that would have been a good resource.

But otoh men had volunteered & brought their sons back then (when it went mixed) they wouldn't have needed to go mixed. Why were men and boys going less?

I think there is evidence that boys' only spaces benefit boys too?

If mixed does benefit them more, why?

As I've said earlier in the thread, DD had her hair cut very short when she was 8. She did look like a boy, 100% and I'd say 90% of strangers referred to her as "he", "young man", "mate", "little boy" etc.

This is my experience too - I was usually assumed to be a boy until I hit puberty. Obviously anyone who knew me knew I was a girl - they knew my name and so on- but strangers definitely couldn't tell.

As others have said, I believe that no male born children are being asked to or expected to leave, but no further male born children will be accepted. I also don’t care that cubs is mixed sex, you know that it is when you sign your child up, and I don’t see it as the ahah! Argument many do for brownies also being mixed sex. Cubs/ scouts chose to go mixed sex, Guides did not and are for natal born women and girls to give them an environment they are not competing in. Yes Guides previously chose to believe there is absolutely no difference between natal born male and females, but the simple fact is that there is, and it’s been recognised in law. If it bothers you, find a new troop

9yos having boyfriends and talking about impressing boys? OK it's often a game at that age (I remember friends having mock weddings at that age, definitely not taken seriously ar all!) But that does sound a bit worrying...

What issues does it have? I thought Brownies was popular & didn't have trouble finding members.

Is a perceived 'witch hunt' over trans a big reason why Brownies is having problems?

Boys and girls only look different because boys have short hair and wear boy's clothes, whereas girls have long hair and wear girl's clothes.

That's not a biological difference. That's a difference in appearance due to conformance to societal norms.

Secondary sexual characteristics develop during puberty. That's when men and women look different. If you give a man long hair and a dress, he still looks like a man because of his secondary sexual characteristics such as facial hair, broad shoulders, square jaw line, body hair, brow ridge, and (usually) increased height.

Children have not developed their secondary sexual characteristics.

Exactly

Guiding has no trouble attracting young members. We have so many 4 year olds wanting a place leader could open another group of rainbows and it’s only a village.
Where guiding struggles is for adult volunteers. It’s a huge responsibility to be a leader, big time commitment running group, paperwork admin, banking, dealing with parents plus keeping up to date with training courses.