To feel weird about Brownies because there’s a boy there?

[ElizaDolittle124]

Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group. Another parent turned up with a younger sibling who immediately said loudly ‘mummy why is there a boy here?’ The mum was v flustered trying to explain he wanted to join in and the child just said ‘but brownies is for girls’ until she told him to be quiet.

I just feel a bit weird that I didn’t know. The whole reason we joined brownies was for the girls only environment, which my daughter was really excited about. Feel like I should have just put her in the scouts instead now (which would have been more convenient). But my friend is one of the brownie leaders and she encouraged me by promoting the idea of a girl’s only space.

There’s a brownie camp sleepover thing next month where they sleep in dormitories. My daughter can’t go anyway as we have other plans that weekend, but it’s got me wondering how they’re going to arrange that? Surely they can’t have the boy sleeping separately in a room on his own, but equally he can’t go with the girls?

I’m not sure that OP has commented on the length of his hair. Do you think OPs DD and the other kids are confused as well?

It was suggested to me that DD was similarly confused by a short haircut when she pointed out that there was a boy in her girls rugby match. The only problem was, he had long hair. When my kids were at primary school, there were several boys with very long hair but no confusion there.

As I’ve said before, I am a bit mystified as I have never seen this level of confusion in my 50+ years even when I was young and boys/girls clothes and haircuts were often almost identical. I and all my friends (now I look at the photos) had short, boy style haircuts.

Maybe it did happen for some (I’m not saying you’re lying but the number of people on this thread claiming the same seems 🤔) but was less of an issue because parents weren’t lying about their sons sex and ramming them into girls spaces or maybe there is some other phenomenon going on.

People also get it wrong a lot with quick glances. That’s why witness statements can be a struggle because 10 people could take a quick glance and only a few could say they saw the same exact thing. It is shown time and time again and people have wrongly gone to prison over a witness’s quick glances.

OP could literally just ask their own daughter and/or the friend instead of a bunch of strangers who weren’t there to be sure of it bothers them so.

So the Taliban are just guessing? And the solution for parents who want their daughters to get an education in school is to just claim they are a boy?

Can you provide this scientific evidence that children have ‘gender neutral’ faces until the age of 7? I’m looking over some old kids photos and I can’t see any room for confusion there.

Maybe this is where these accounts are not quite ringing true for me. My kids went to lots of groups and we were quite sociable but we never encountered a situation where a stranger was having such an interaction with my children and felt the need to reference their sex. But this happened so often to your DD that you can make percentages out of the number of times. Maybe we have moved in very different circles.

The only time a stranger has approached me and my children and mentioned their sex was when a little old lady came up to me in the supermarket and admired my DD and DS who were sat in the trolley together and commented that I had a ‘pigeon pair’ meaning a boy and a girl close in age. DD was wearing DSs hand me downs and they both had long hair. How could she tell?

To PPs claiming there are no visible differences at all between males and females under the age of 7 could look at the studies that show that there very much are discernible differences between the sexes which most of us use fairly accurately to determine the sex of a child regardless of social cues like hair etc.

This study (and others) says that’s not true. There are discernible differences. It makes sense if you think about it as even baby boys and girls are physically different. They have different growth rates, activity, motor skills development. The NHS has a boys growth chart and a girls growth chart. Boys tend to develop their gross motor skills more quickly whereas girls tend to develop their fine motor skills etc. These differences from birth will be partly because of the different physicality of their sex and will also create a physical feedback loop that reinforces it.

It concerns me that we are going backwards in our knowledge of children and child development.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0364021301000544

That part is obvious. You ignored the first question, though. How do you tell the difference between little boys and little girls? Please tell me how they look different, what features specifically?

This is general behaviour if the sexes observed and recorded over many years. I’m sorry it makes you uncomfortable with it doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Brownies and guides are clearly becoming hugely unhealthy places for children hence them not wanting to be dictated to by activists in the first place.

They allowed themselves to be dictated to by activists when they write unlawful policies to allow a certain category of boy to join.

Their policies had input from a man called Monica Sulley (aka Monica Tetley, apparently a reference to a sexual practice), a Girl Guiding Divisional Commissioner who also posted sexualised pictures of himself posing in underwear in a public space and posing with guns. He left eventually and joined the Scouts.

I’m sorry your DD was bullied, that is not ok but also not a justification to apply negative generalisations on all girls.

How much education do you really think kids get before the age of 7?

At this moment in time I can't find the study that I'd read previously but it was a scientific study with lots of people and lots of kids photos, without hair.
Basically people were guessing what was boy, girl, can't tell.

So your AI answer confirms there are observable differences, they are just not as pronounced as when a child starts puberty.

This study is an interesting read. Among other things, a Japanese group created composite pictures that highlighted the facial differences. If you think about the known physical differences between male and female babies (different growth charts/ activity etc), it makes sense that there will be observable differences in their faces. It’s not as reliable as looking at an adult face but it is completely inaccurate to claim there are no differences and it’s impossible to tell.
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0364021301000544

Nope sorry. I'm a mum of 2 boys. One has long hair. Neither have ever been particularly dominant.

I still believe children need some single sex groups.

How much education do you really think kids get before the age of 7?

How is that relevant on the question of how the Taliban reliably knows which kids to ban from education?

The only category of boy currently allowed to join is leaders sons. Which is for practical reasons.

I imagine for most by the time they get to Guides age they'd rather curl up in a ball / hide in a corner with a phone, than actually take part in the activities that Mum is offering.

But sadly, as we can see, there are boys that were previously allowed to join and are apparently being allowed to stay. The reasons why the policy is unlawful and to the detriment of girls haven’t changed and the girls in those groups are apparently just going to have to live with the shitty decision making of GG driven by a man who gets off on pictures of himself in women’s underwear.

If the world went back to normal, people would be universally horrified by this and demand it be sorted pronto but sadly it hasn’t.

🤣Oh the hypocrisy. So negative generalisation of boys is fine and dandy.

Such behaviour is common in single groups of girls. It’s not unusual. Many years of single sex female education and group experience here

Ok well having experienced it, for both sexes. I don’t.

Yes. That was cubs and scouts. They are mixed sex organisations. This is brownies and guides. They are girls only. You’re welcome.

Yes.
Grow up.

And illustrates why both brownies and guides should now be avoided.

What's not grown up about wanting single sex spaces for girls?

Good for you. So dont use single sex spaces for your children and let those that need/want them have them.

Nobody is stopping you however we can call out witch hunting and stereotyping of children alongside unpleasant and damaging environments.

New male children can no longer join girl guiding but current members wernt immediately thrown out after the recent ruling. I assume they will move male children onto cubs soon

This whole thing is ridiculous. OP have you confirmed yet if this boy is actually a boy? or in fact a girl with short hair?
if i am honest i think brownies and girl guides are massively outdated, its not the same thing as safe spaces for girls and boys when it comes to changing rooms at the swimming pool for example. They way people are going on as if boys and girls shouldn't be doing art and crafts and whatever else they do at these groups together.
If girls can join cubs and scouts then surely boys should have the same options at brownies if they arent into the 'rough and tumble' activities?
Boys can be gentle just as girls can be rough.

@magicalmadmadamim
yes i get that. And there a lots of opportunities for children to do crafts and sing together.

But girl guiding is largely about teaching girls to see the value of their sex, to grow up into confident and capable women. To show them that girls can do all sorts of things. In a world where so many women bow to men and accept the bare minimum for themselves (as showcased on many of these boards!), I think it’s incredibly valuable for young girls personal development.

Just quoting my own post for all the people asking why we need single sex groups. This is just one reason.