To feel weird about Brownies because there’s a boy there?

[ElizaDolittle124]

Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group. Another parent turned up with a younger sibling who immediately said loudly ‘mummy why is there a boy here?’ The mum was v flustered trying to explain he wanted to join in and the child just said ‘but brownies is for girls’ until she told him to be quiet.

I just feel a bit weird that I didn’t know. The whole reason we joined brownies was for the girls only environment, which my daughter was really excited about. Feel like I should have just put her in the scouts instead now (which would have been more convenient). But my friend is one of the brownie leaders and she encouraged me by promoting the idea of a girl’s only space.

There’s a brownie camp sleepover thing next month where they sleep in dormitories. My daughter can’t go anyway as we have other plans that weekend, but it’s got me wondering how they’re going to arrange that? Surely they can’t have the boy sleeping separately in a room on his own, but equally he can’t go with the girls?

I'd ask the leaders why a boy is there, if they are for girls only, if you're not happy can you move your dd to another group.

I think that regardless of the mistakes Girlguiding have made in the last, they are right to safeguard all of the children who are currently members, because no 7 year old child is to blame for Girlguiding not interpreting the law correctly 15 years ago.

I also think that if they suddenly turned around and said "you're all banned effective immediately", they'd lose enough of their volunteers to have to close down dozens of units, and then even more children miss out. But that's ok on Mumsnet as long as it's one in the eye for the transes.

It wasn't someone on mumsnet!! It was an official thing (law i think) I remember hearing it and thinking finally someone is making sensible decisions! Girls = guides/brownies/rainbows boys = scouts/cubs/beavers.

Scouting (squirrels, beavers, cubs and scouts) made the decision a long time ago to become a mixed sex organisation because of dwindling member and volunteer numbers. They are unaffected by this ruling.

For the 100th time, girls can join beavers / cubs / scouts too as they have declared themselves mixed sex!!!

What are "Kelsey aged boys" ?

It's impossible to keep up with things these days when I never know what's a typo versus something I've not heard of before. I always Google and often learn new things, but got nothing for Kelsey boys.

I left Guiding as a leader a few years ago; because I didn’t agree with a number of policies, not just the gender admissions blurring, my DS frequently had to come to meetings and camps with me as I had no alternative and things couldn’t run in ratio without me. The DC would join in some of the activities but were absolutely not allowed to wear uniform and we camped as a family- me and the dc in our own tent, the boys used a boys toilet block etc.

I have moved across to scouting, and have been reassured by the clarity in the organisations policies.

As an aside, according to whichever Baden Powell I met whilst guiding, the original Lord Baden Powell wasn’t opposed to having girls in scouting, but others of the time didn’t approve, so guides started.

I was a brownie in 1991 when Scouts opened to girls across all sections, the scout group that met in the same church as us advertised for girl members and I clearly remember my Brown Owl telling us we could go if we wanted but Guides will never have boys, boys would spoil what brownies was about…

The law hasn't changed. I've no idea why people peddle this myth.

You're completely wrong.

Edited to add:
What law protected males being in female single sex spaces before the FWS ruling?

If it has been advertised to you as a single sex group, you should ask from the leader in private. It doesn't have to be accusatory.

Our cubs are mixed group (and have been for almost 50 years) and we are open about it. There is an all girls group and all boys group 2 miles away from pur meeting place and they have that made that clear. A lot of historically single sex scouts/guide local groups around here are now mixed mainly due to lack of children.

This.

It bothered them enough to write on an anonymous forum. Could have used the same time and energy to actually ask the person who encouraged them to join a girl only group.

Could even wait until the next meeting and see if the child is there and then ask the person who encouraged them or simply just listen to the conversations around if still uncomfortable. If it is a boy, someone could likely be as curious as OP
and ask a parent who has been there awhile.

I grew up with girls who didn’t look traditionally feminine and were bullied for it and female teachers who were whispered about because they looked “manly” and had deeper voices despite having husbands and children.

I wouldn’t think to raise this if I didn’t have proof, yet I also wouldn’t believe I’ve been deceived after being told it was an all-girl group.

Talk to Brown Owl or whatever the leader is called? Best fact find first and then sadly, if necessary, call them out.

I had short hair for periods of my childhood but was never mistaken for a boy!

Well if that's true its ridiculous. Im glad my sons beavers only has boys, there is one boy with long curly hair and a feminine face who could pass as a girl but that's ok because he is actually a boy!! Luckily his mum isn't a dumbarse and hasn't decided to stick him in rainbows instead!

Presumably (if it was only the one group taking their promise) your dd knows that this boy attends? That's hardly keeping it a secret.

But that isn't true of brownie and guide camps. GG says they are girls so no reason to segregate.

That is a problem.

Just raise it quietly with your friend - perfectly ok to do so, as your friend 'sold' it to you as a girl-only activity. You don't need to make a bit fuss, just a quiet word for clarification.

To those asking if he was really a boy. He very obviously was and wearing the uniform and joining in

Did anyone actually tell you the child was a boy? Or are you assuming the child was, based on appearance. As a 7 year old, I was regularly mistaken for a boy, I had short spiky hair, dressed like a boy etc, and loved it when someone got it wrong!! I'm a cub leader, and we have two boys in our pack with long hair, who are often mistaken for girls by visitors who don't know them. It's not always easy to tell with young children. Or perhaps the child is a trans-boy, so will be called he/him, but be allowed under current rules, as they are biologically a girl.

So thinking that through Op has been dropping her DD off and picking up for 5 or 6 weeks and not noticed this 'boy' who may or may not actually be a boy.

Lots of groups do have waiting lists but I do Beavers and we have plenty spaces. Not every youth group is over subscribed.

Well if that's true it's ridiculous. Im glad my sons beavers only has boys

Why in the world are you sending your child to a mixed-sex youth group, if you are against the fact that girls can join, and that this would be ridiculous? That makes no sense whatsoever. There are very few scout groups that are single sex (they can be in some special circumstances, but it's rare). What will you do if a girl does join, make your son leave?

That’s a good point.

OP says in the original post.

”Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group.”

If OP has been dropping off their daughter, how are they only noticing this “boy” now?

Also wouldn’t OP’s daughter have mentioned if there was a boy in the group in the first place if she’s been there for 5/6 weeks.

The OP needs to ask the leader. It is so, so simple. If the OP doesn’t like the answer, they have a choice to complain or move on.

There has been a number of logical responses as to why there was a boy at the meeting. (Could in fact be a girl and OP has it wrong / volunteers child / could be a trans boy which is permitted)

Promise Ceremonies do not happen on the first night you join.

GG Policy states that trans girls are no longer permitted to join. Trans boys are allowed to join. All genders are allowed to be volunteers. It clearly states that this is from the 2nd December 25. All membership status before this date remains unaffected, unless GG state otherwise.

If you think this is breaking the law - go argue with the lawyers.

Thats it. We follow the rules or we are personally open to getting sued and risk not having insurance.

I focus my sessions on empowering young women to have the confidence to be what they want to be when they are older and give them access to various activities and experiences that will hopefully stay with them a lifetime.

A lot of the brownies that are in my unit are from deprived areas. I have helped many of them get long lasting careers and opportunities. I have also helped children who have been bullied feel somewhere they can come and be safe. I have had children with disabilities feel included and achieve things their parents didn’t dream possible. I am very passionate and feel responsible for change. Because if I can give 30 children two hours of of time a week to leave feeling good, safe and inspired it’s worth every bit of volunteering hours I put in.

A lot of leaders put in a huge amount of unpaid hours for their terms.

This constant berating my some mumsnet members is just unnecessary. Perhaps go and put something good back in to inspire young women for their futures rather than arguing with people on an online forum ! All that pent up energy would be well spent then.

OP. Just ask the leader. It’s that easy.

Why? Cubs and Scouts are mixed sex (though there are 2 girls in DS’ Cubs group and about 20 boys). Guides and Brownies are single sex

Scouts changed their articles of association from stating they were for boys to say that they were mixed sex to save them from going under. Therefore they cannot stop a girl from joining on the basis that she’s a girl. They could do on the basis that there’s a waiting list, but they cannot discriminate against her because she’s a girl.

Girl guide’s articles of association say they’re for females only and so boys are not allowed to join under any circumstances.

You seem to be getting yourself wound up and aggressive about this.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by ‘gender’ - are you using it as a euphemism for sex? If that is the case I’d be surprised if anyone questions her sex as despite this recent rash of convenient claims to the contrary, pretty much everyone can tell straightaway. When I was growing up, many girls (including myself) and boys wore pretty much the same clothes and had the same haircuts in many cases. I actually wore boys jeans until I grew hips as they were cheaper.

If you mean ‘gender’ as something else it would be helpful if you could explain that.

I agree with previous comments saying how can you be 100% sure the sex of a child- my boy has long hair and is always referred to as a girl by people who don't know him. This is the case whether he is in 'boyish' clothes or neutral clothes. Hair length seems to be the deciding factor in what sex a child is, so I guess a girl with short hair might experience the same thing

This is unfortunately a result of two things -

1. people of the opposite sex (mainly men) deciding that they will no longer respect society’s rules on single sex spaces that have worked for millennia and
2. the use of rigid sex based stereotypes to prop up gender ideology (if a boy likes ‘girls’ toys, he must be really a girl etc) and ‘diagnose’ kids as ‘trans’.

So whereas 20/30 years ago, there was much more freedom on ‘gender’ presentation - men wore long hair/make up and even dresses (see the singer and personality in the 80s, Marilyn) which we all enjoyed, suddenly there is this huge push towards rigid conformity (eg. all girls must have long hair) and anyone who doesn’t conform is now questioned and due to the hair trigger of the trans activists for offence to be taken, err on the side of caution and assume ‘trans’.

The trans activists have done huge harm to society. Now many are even claiming they can’t tell between boys and girls.