To feel weird about Brownies because there’s a boy there?

[ElizaDolittle124]

Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group. Another parent turned up with a younger sibling who immediately said loudly ‘mummy why is there a boy here?’ The mum was v flustered trying to explain he wanted to join in and the child just said ‘but brownies is for girls’ until she told him to be quiet.

I just feel a bit weird that I didn’t know. The whole reason we joined brownies was for the girls only environment, which my daughter was really excited about. Feel like I should have just put her in the scouts instead now (which would have been more convenient). But my friend is one of the brownie leaders and she encouraged me by promoting the idea of a girl’s only space.

There’s a brownie camp sleepover thing next month where they sleep in dormitories. My daughter can’t go anyway as we have other plans that weekend, but it’s got me wondering how they’re going to arrange that? Surely they can’t have the boy sleeping separately in a room on his own, but equally he can’t go with the girls?

Are you sure it's a boy? Because I was a very "male" looking child and a massive tom boy. I was very often mistaken for a boy until I was 14 and got boobs and even as a middle aged woman gets called "sir" pretty regularly.

The most logical answer is it is a leaders son. I can't believe so many posters are on their high horse wanting to send emails and messages rather than a quiet word with the leaders at the end of the next session.

If they got an email back confirming its a leaders son what are they going to do, suggest Op withdraws her DD?

The Ops DD was invited to join so it maybe is a group who doesn't have a waiting list or over subscribed.

And they're going to release more information about their policy for existing members soon; presumably once they've taken legal advice and ensured that they're safeguarding everyone involved. Their safeguarding duty to children with Male on their birth certificate doesn't just end the second the ruling comes into force (safeguarding is everyone's responsibility etc), so it has to be handled carefully - not just a "never darken our doorstep again" at the end of last term.

I'm another one with a prepubescent daughter with short hair and I just don't believe all you posters who reckon it's sooo obvious what sex a clothed young child is, because literally everyone who doesn't know my daughter already thinks she's a boy.

OP, was the child being called David? Was everyone referring to the child as 'he'? Can you confirm that you weren't basing your assumption on something like hair?

The promise ceremony usually takes place after the brownie has been there for at least 6 weeks. That’s what I understood the OP had been invited to.

It’s likely there is a big waiting list. (We have 50 children per section currently waiting for a space and not enough units to offer them)

But I completely agree, a quiet word would have avoided all of this nonsense. It’s a child.

That's just not correct. Even in the 70s we had various ethnicities in my Brownies and theres no way badges are being withheld simply because of race or nationally. Whatever's gone on, it's not that.

Policy shouldn't trump law. Which it currently does in the Brownies.

If this law was about something else other than women's and girls' rights, it wouldn't have been ignored in this way.

But if you read the thread, it doesn’t. GG changed their policy before Christmas with the exception of leaders children.

You say 'very obviously was' but this year I have misgendered a cub at my sons group who has long blonde hair past his shoulders and a girl at my sons Judo who has the sort of standard issue short boys cut. Didn't have a clue for months. Did you know because they were using male pronouns?
I get what you are saying about the residential because you'd want them to be single sex but we still have 7 year old boys with their mums in our communal girls changing room at swimming lessons.

I am a sports coach have been coaching same group of girls' since they were 5. All girls, now at age 12 a few of them look like boys I know they are girls but I imagine any parent coming along to watch one of our training sessions would be forgiven for mistaking them for boys.

Op ask the cub leader in private what the situation is I am not very comfortable dissecting the gender of a 7 year old child

It isn't being ignored; they're working on the guidance. I'm not sure what magic fantasy GC utopia you live in, but it isn't the case that as soon as someone says "I'm trans!", all safeguarding responsibilities towards them disappear the second a piece of legislation is written, and everyone has paperwork ready to go just in case any law should change at any given time.

I'm sure you would like this rule to remain in place and for Girlguiding to remain single sex - therefore, doesn't it make more sense for them to consider their position, get legal advice and write their guidance very carefully to avoid any risk of successful challenges and appeals on various different grounds?

There are seven year old children involved who will inevitably have to be told at some point that they can no longer attend the group they go to with their friends. Safeguarding means thinking carefully about the best way to do this - whether that's at the end of the summer term, the end of their time in their current section or the end of their time in Guiding. They aren't going to suddenly say "right, all the transes, get out" because someone on Mumsnet is stamping her feet about it.

It does if they currently allow boys to remain who were already in the Brownies. Which they still do, and is illegal. That's discriminatory to boys and girls. Girls because if it's a single sex organisation then there must be no boys in it, and boys because they are allowing some boys in (those who were already in Brownies) but not any others.

I don't think you need a better phrase (or word). Tomboy has a perfectly understood meaning, but I'm sure someone will disagree.

It’s currently not legal to have boys in brownies. If I robbed someone it wouldn’t be a valid defence to say that I didn’t think it was illegal and I am awaiting my own guidance would it!

Laughable response here! Listen to yourself!

The law has actually always been the law and Brownies have been breaking it. Anyone who complained was ignored or worse. The Supreme Court judge came out months ago to clarify the position. Girl Guiding has been dragging its heels because it doesn't want to comply. But it has had plenty of time to tell boys to leave.

Non-relevant to pinpoint really. It’ll be happening in some and not others. My point is it’s not few enough to unique, other poster’s point (presumably) is that it’s not many enough for unjustified moral panic. Both can be true at the same time.

Regardless, it’s been pointed out that there’s no change at the current time for existing members, whether boy or otherwise, so all a bit of a storm in a teacup.

GC utopia? Do you mean complying with the law? The law hasn't suddenly changed, it's been in place since 2010. Organisations chose to ignore it, hence the challenge. This mess is of the GGs own making. They have treated women abominably who stood up for the safety, dignity and comfort of girls in a girls' only organisation.

They've had a year to comply (or really 15) and they need to sort it.

So weird you feel that way. I think any single sex activities for kids are unnecessary.

Exactly. Or even if a speed limit changed. But officer, it was 40mph 15 years ago.

"possibly" not "probably".

Mumsnet is hilarious. Safeguard women and girls by throwing vulnerable 7 year olds out of clubs with no warning! Top notch, I'll be sure to come to you all with any safeguarding concerns I have.

I don't have an issue with mixed sex activities for children at all. But it's fundamentally wrong to say something is single sex when it isn't, that's the issue. You can't safeguard girls properly in those circumstances.

Just because you would have preferred cubs/scouts, doesnt mean all girls would. I was a Brownie and then Guide in the 90s. I loved the girl only space away from the physical and sexual assault I suffered at home. Even without that it was just nice to have time away from boys in general.

Oh so you think there ought to be blurred boundaries, exceptions made, oh but only if you knew them you’d be fine with it, etc etc? This is exactly how safeguarding is breeched. This is exactly how people end up being harmed.

But this is correct. New policy: The law changed and GG have responded. Trans boys are allowed to join. Because they are biological females.

Trans girls cannot join because they are biological males.

All genders can be volunteers - be it leaders / unit helpers.

Those that joined BEFORE the law change are allowed to continue. Because it was protected under law before it came into force.

do you really think that GG haven’t taken legal advice on this ?