To feel weird about Brownies because there’s a boy there?

[ElizaDolittle124]

Was invited to Brownies tonight to see my daughter do her ‘promise’. Was a bit awkward as it turns out there’s a boy in the group. Another parent turned up with a younger sibling who immediately said loudly ‘mummy why is there a boy here?’ The mum was v flustered trying to explain he wanted to join in and the child just said ‘but brownies is for girls’ until she told him to be quiet.

I just feel a bit weird that I didn’t know. The whole reason we joined brownies was for the girls only environment, which my daughter was really excited about. Feel like I should have just put her in the scouts instead now (which would have been more convenient). But my friend is one of the brownie leaders and she encouraged me by promoting the idea of a girl’s only space.

There’s a brownie camp sleepover thing next month where they sleep in dormitories. My daughter can’t go anyway as we have other plans that weekend, but it’s got me wondering how they’re going to arrange that? Surely they can’t have the boy sleeping separately in a room on his own, but equally he can’t go with the girls?

I think they will end up revoking membership to current members, but I think this move will lose them a lot of their volunteers too, so they're trying to spread the decisions out. That's the way I can see it going.

This all sounds a bit far fetched to me.

A new Brownie will be 7 they leave at 10yo. So I do question the way this story is related.

We sometimes had a boy at Brownies. It was because his mother was Brown Owl.

I agree wholeheartedly that this space should stay girls only, but also you need to accept that it needs to be practical for leaders or you won't have any.

I had a mum visit my brownie unit and insist there was a boy in it. The “boy” in question was a girl with short hair. Girlguiding is girl only.

Did you actually see his penis? Because if so I’d definitely be complaining about that!

You do know that children can have female or ambiguous genitalia and have short hair right? I know several in our school. You wouldn’t guess they are biologically female by their outward appearance because they have short hair and dress in ‘boy’ clothes because they like it. I thought this is what all the gender critical folks wanted? Children appropriately sorted by their genitals. Maybe now you have it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

The statistical likelihood of OP's Brownie being a girl with short hair is much higher than it being a boy. TRAs are to blame in the sense that they campaigned for the access, but honestly, only OP is to blame for her assumptions based on a visual assessment of a pre-pubescent child with short hair.

It absolutely wouldn't have been my first thought on seeing such a child. Would it have been yours?

My mum wouldn’t let me have long hair because ‘it was too much bother’ the number of times I got challenged by adults for being in a ‘girls space’ was fairly high. I don’t think it’s really possible to tell that well at 7 or 8 unless via hair / dress etc.

still traumatised by being shouted at by an elderly nun in the girls loos at school.

Is it many units or barely any units cos the other person on her arguing it is fine for boys to be in a single sex group says it’s barely any.

I'm a brownie leader - thankfully it's changed so that it's completely single sex (rather than pseudo single sex). Boys though have never been allowed to join.

I suspect that it was a leader or parent helper's child. We do have boys coming on occasions if a leader or parent helper doesn't have any alternative childcare. Although, they wouldn't be allowed to come on a residential weekend away.

I suspect he won't be there next week.

So is the law. If it's a single sex group, that's what it must be. Their current policy of allowing some boys in - ie those who were already in the brownies - isn't legal.

@jetlag92 is it worth the OP asking about the camp though and single sex overnight accommodation?

It is off because it's against the rules!

Exactly this. Girl guide rules aren’t the law. The law is the law. I’d complain OP. It’s piss poor that the brownies are teaching girls at such a young age that their legal boundaries are there to be trampled on.

Girlguiding have now said that they will follow the supreme court’s ruling and only biological females can join.

A child younger than seven was loudly questioning the sex of a child at a group they were simply dropping an older sibling at?

If that happened any embarrassment was surely more likely to be because the child was being so rude about a girl who looked boyish.

I had very short hair as an 8yo because I hated having it brushed. You'd probably assume I'm a boy the photos, what with me being prepubescent! I was certainly teased for looking like a boy.

Oh, and no, @Owly11, women can't always tell. 20 years ago, before all this was a big thing, I, in my early 30s, shaved my head for charity. I can't tell you how many women, when I was out and about with my husband, thought I was his son.

Doesn't help that I have a deep voice and a preference for baggy tee shirts.

Organisations really just need to stop promoting things as girls or women only when they're not. If they would just stop the outright lying then maybe people could also stop trying to gaslight mothers who question it.

I can't find where the op states this brownie had short hair, just that they are clearly male.

Yes there are some males members of brownies, should there be No but the girl guides association is a captured association and doesn't see biological sex, I had a very interesting email conversation with them once using very biological terms asking for confirmation that my daughter would never have to share with a brownie/guide with male genitalia- they simply confirmed that they are for girls only (but transgirls are girls).

Yes they are now being dragged kicking and screaming into the world post the sc judgement but they are saying the right things with their fingers crossed behind their backs.

Probably the leaders son or a girl who looks like a boy.
If you find out the child is definitely a boy ( I think a trans kid of that age would actually look quite female) and they aren’t the leaders son you could query it.

Both my boys went to cubs and scouts in two different districts due to moving house and although numbers fluctuated and slightly more boys than girls it wasn’t a “domination” ie large majority at all, and many leaders female.

No idea about brownies / guides policies.

However, as a mum of girls who were in cubs, scouts and explorers, camps are really well managed. Girls share tents / dorms with girls and boys share with boys.

Activities are of course all mixed and as far as I can tell it works well.

Tbh though I would be annoyed at something being pitched as girls only having a boy.

GG leader here also - I agree with previous leaders comments.

GG did in fact change the rules prior to Christmas. Albeit as other posters - boys have never been allowed.

Exception being leaders or unit helpers children. This is generally worse case scenario to keep the session open. (Keep in mind your GG team are all unpaid volunteers - I wouldn’t blame a helper bringing their child rather than finding paid child care to be honest)

My little boy sometimes comes to unit meetings, as well as my daughter. This is to keep the unit running. (And allowed under the GG rules)

Raise with your unit leader or district commissioner if you have concerns. Albeit, keep in mind that a lot of volunteers are already on the edge about exiting the organisation if I received a complaint about my child being there whilst I look after 30 peoples children for 2 hours a week and don’t get as much as a Christmas card or a thank you at the end of term.

A simple: ‘Brown Owl I didn’t think it was a mixed group’ to find out the facts would have avoided all of the speculation.

The units are generally over subscribed but this is because lots of units have had to close because of lack of funding and or volunteers. (We used to have 7 units - we are scraping by to keep 3 open at the moment)

If it is in fact because of unit helpers child care, perhaps you could volunteer yourself cover meetings as a parent helper to avoid the situation of a boy being present if it is so much of an issue for you :)

I have also been mistaken for male but only at first glance. In a female space where it really matters a second look is all it takes. First impressions are made at speed based on surface info. Anyway it is irrelevant because no one cares that you sometimes get mistaken for a man (apart from you). What matters is whether women can identify whether a man is pretending to be a woman in a female only space and on the whole men do not pass. Of course there will be exceptions but exceptions prove the rule as they say.

Yes, but this was a child. It's much less obvious.

Just to say OP that you are failing to protect and guide your daughter by failing to raise this. Brienyes is a single sex space, end of, boys should not be there. Are you going to allow her to go in camp knowing she could be sharing a space with a boy? What message are you sending her?

I’m an immigrant. In the 80s I was told I could not do brownies because I was not British.

when my child started cubs, within a few months it came to light he would not be given badges even though other kids doing exactly the same would be.

it is a very strange institution, the whole thing.