Would you separate in these circumstances

[PinkertonRab]

AIBU to want a divorce?

I’ll try keep it short. Together 20 years in total since our early 20s. 4 children aged 11, 8, 5 and 3. I’m the main breadwinner (we both work) but also completely fed up with doing 90% of all household tasks and 100% of mental load and DIY. We have argued about this forever.

Sometimes DH improves for a short while with washing and hoovering but it rarely lasts. More recently, he genuinely believes he is actually doing his fair share - it’s delusional but he’ll wash up once and then refer back to it in the argument when I say I’m sick of him doing nothing.

He’s an excellent dad and hands on with school run and playing with kids but that also means he’s the ‘fun’ parent while I remind them to tidy their room or brush their teeth. He’s a kind person who I know loves me works full time (longer hours than me) and can do some tasks if I ask. But there is inability to see any task that needs doing, and unable, and seemingly unwilling to learn any basic diy. If I don’t fix it, it stays broke. I deal with all admin, bills, insurance, holidays etc

I am just so tired of the same argument. If it hasn’t changed in 20 years then it isn’t going to. I’m worn out, snappy, fed up. My life would run so much smoother without chasing round after an overgrown child who takes no responsibility for anything. If I hadn’t have taken the Christmas tree down, I’d be willing to bet it would stay up til this Christmas.

Both DH and the kids would be devastated if we split. Is this just how life is? I’m not looking for perfect or anything exciting- just an actual partner doing their share. He creates more work for me. I’ve lost respect and am noticable withdrawn from relationship but feel awful breaking up family when he’s not done anything ‘wrong’ and like I’m selfish.

YABU - this is life and not worth the upset to the kids
YANBU - a divorce is best long term

Why are men SO useless?

My exH was similarly useless. It was absolutely painful. Once, when my parents were coming to stay, he refused to help me convert the day bed to their bed in advance of their arrival, so I did it myself. The mattresses were really heavy and I ended up dropping one of them, which smashed a glass light shade and hurt my hand.

Another time, I was doing so much heavy stuff around the house that I had a stiff hand every morning when I woke up, for about four months.

Another time, it was raining and water was pouring in through an invisible crack in the window frame. He couldn't have cared less, just went and sat in the living room with a book, while it was left to me to get towels, get on a chair, and try to find out where the water was coming in. I have never, ever felt so much like a mother with a twelve-year-old son.

And he would be ever so proud of himself for doing the washing up if I'd cooked. But the kitchen was still left in a mess. That's literally all he would do - wash up. He wouldn't dry the dishes or put them away, tidy up, wipe the counters, sweep the floor. And mostly he wanted to leave the dirty dishes till the morning anyway.

To be fair, I once had a female housemate who was even worse than him.

Mess and dirt quite literally never bothered either of them in the slightest. They really, really didn't care if they lived somewhere really messy and really dirty.

I think that some people are like this, for some reason. They truly do not care or mind about living in a slum.

No advice, I'm afraid. I was never able to change either of them an iota.

OP - send him these links:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288

https://matthewfray.com/start-here/

Yes, obviously. However, using her children and deserting them for a month as a stick to beat him and turning them into a teaching tool for his bad behaviour is unacceptable, imo. OP may feel differently.

He is not an excellent dad. An excellent dad would not sit back and watch the mother of his children run themselves ragged with household chores whilst offering no assistance. You have reached a crossroads, he won't change after 20 years. Where do yourself in the next 20 years? If you stay with him, you will still be doing all the chores, possibly with declining health as you age. Also, you don't want your children to see that it is normal for a man to sit back and do sweet FA whilst the woman drives herself into an early grave. A son will copy his behaviour and a daughter will put up with crap relationships in the future.

If he genuinely doesn't see how much you do compared to him (and if you want to give him a final chance), maybe do a checklist type thing of all the chores with a column for each of you. Whoever does the chore ticks it off.

This is the most sensible comment.

Make a list of what gets done. The kids can do the easy bits like the dishwasher, setting and clearing the table. Putting their own laundry in the bin. Hanging up wet laundry.

Then get a cleaner for the cleaning jobs.

Anything left, split the rest of it between you. I bet when you do this, it'll be some minor school admin and insurance, most of which is once a year.

Splitting would mean likely seeing the kids 50% of the time. That would be a firm "no" from me.

he genuinely believes he is actually doing his fair share - it’s delusional

&

I also believe he won’t present a truthful version to the counsellor as he seems to have such a false narrative around what he contributes

^ these tell you very clearly what the problem is: that he believes, really truly believes^, he is doing his share. So there is nothing for him to change.

But you also say you love him but that you'd be a happier mum without him.

So I think try the chores app. Have a big talk. Try to basically document how hard you've tried. Allocate him jobs whenever you're doing one (I know you shouldn't have to though) and it will offer you comfort that you tried everything if you do ever split.

Just finished reading through all the responses and it feels like the inside of my head!

Don’t split up a family if maybe counselling and apps will work and there’s love there. But also, he won’t change now and you’ll be happier if you cut your losses. The 65/35 split is where I’m at!

To cover a few points, my eldest son and daughter help with putting washing away and emptying dishwasher. I actually feel my son steps up as he sees me drowning which I feel bad about.

Money is tricky. For a long time we earned roughly the same (and both above average) so we just had a shared pot. Despite my earnings doubling around 4 years ago, we kept the shared pot. All the bills come out and we spend what’s left on what we want. Any cleaner etc would just come out of the joint pot and so he wouldn’t feel a hit. I have wondered about splitting the finances as do feel he has no concept of what things cost.

What do I love? This feels hard to answer which is telling. We went through a shared traumatic event and so there is an element of trauma bonding I’m sure. We do have shared values and I do find myself wanting to tell him about certain things as I know he’ll laugh in the same way, or have the same view.

He is selfish. His whole family are. Not in a nasty way but it’s like they just can’t think about other people first unless it is directly pointed out.

Still feeling so torn but this has been so useful in terms of saying it out loud and hearing both sides of the choice.

I feel as if I’ve been trained for decades by an all male household to be direct and not expect them to mind read. They prefer this as they instantly understand what is needed and the situation doesn’t drag on, hence my previous comment. Good luck OP.

This is so true. It's irritating as hell, but I now accept this as fact. We are often like two different species with brains operating in completely different, often opposing, ways.

How's it going OP @PinkertonRab - has any progress been made?

Read your post back and i think you have your answer. If you split you say kids and dh would be devestated, not that you wouod, and you dezerve to bd happy.

If you split thpugh you will be responsible for it all solo - are you ready for that and is that what you want?

Would a trial.separation work?

Some progress has been made. We did get a household app which has made quite a bit of difference. The first week I had 200 odd ‘points’ vs his 40 which I think came as a shock to him. To see it so clearly has made him step up. The app also alerts you to the jobs that need doing so I didn’t feel like I was nagging so much.

we’ve also had a frank discussion about money, tasks in general, the mental load and just how over it I was feeling.

the contribution has improved, which means I’m less stressed and things feel better. I am still unsure on how long this will last but by addressing these more superficial issues, I can reflect on the general relationship without this clouding things.

Whatever the long-term outcome is when it comes to the relationship itself, this is definitely great to hear, @PinkertonRab

I would be more likely to leave my husband over unfairness in domestic labour, than I would with a one-off affair. Genuinely.

How do you make the men take 50/50 custody if they are unwilling though?

Similar reasons for divorce here

we and I imagine most people don’t get counselling until it’s too late really. You have to be prepared for a long term commitment to talking to each other and treating each other differently. It’s hard work and if you’ve already “decided” it’s probably too hard to start now and spend 6 months learning how to get along.

but I just wanted to assure- him lying, not engaging- he wont get away with it. The counsellor will deal with this everyday.

most counsellors do online if that’s useful

You can't make them.

But if they're out of the picture post divorce at least you have autonomy and no man child to manage on top of everything you're already doing anyway.

I think any man who wouldn't want 50/50 custody of the kids is lacking as a father. But, question. Those who don't want 50/50 - Why would you want to "make" them? It's like trying to force someone to want to spend time with someone... I get it, it's about responsibilities, but at the same time, it would break my heart if the other parent would need to be forced to be with the kids.. And you better believe the children will sense it too.

So many posters here though say " well seperate then he has to have kids 50% of the time" I would've loved that with my eldest 2 but their dad didn't bother with them at alk

But by the father's not doing 50/50 surely it's " forcing" the mothers to be stuck with kids constantly

That would be the final straw for me.

The thoughtlessness, the taking-it-for-granted that the Hogwarts elves would tidy up after him and magic up a new loaf. That behaviour is actually something of an insult to you in its level of disregard and entitlement.

I agree with you @Thechaseison71 . It does force the mothers to be stuck with the kids more. And it is not fair, totally agree. But let me rephrase it in another way.. If I got a divorce with my wife, and I was the type of moron who wouldn't want to be with my kids 50/50, that is selfish, and worrying too, as they are my kids, I should want to spend as much time with them as I can. I think everyone agrees. But looking at it from the other side, and not focussing on just the "me, my time, not fair for me" - aspect, would anyone want to force the children they love to be with someone who doesn't want to be with them? I don't know about you, I sure as hell wouldn't. It is not fair on the kids, to break their little hearts, having to experience someone around them who clearly doesn't want them around.. Does that make sense? Getting what's "fair" I think is not worth putting one's kids through something like that.

I am in a similar position, though after an honest chat about me wanting time apart a few years ago, he has stepped up a lot on all the chores/school runs etc.

He has mostly sustained the improvements for 2+ years!

My problem is that I still don’t want to be in a relationship with him. We are coparents and housemates only, and I don’t want to be housemates any more!

But as you say, he hasn’t really done anything wrong …. except stood by and left me to carry it all for years on end until I don’t love him any more and I don’t enjoy living with him. Why is it so hard to leave someone for that?

Well done OP. Sounds like you have managed to make him see some on the imbalance without adding too much to your own load.

I liked a PP's suggestion that any outsourced tasks (like cleaning, gardening or DIY) should be paid for in cash by your DH. Even if you have a joint bank account actually handing over notes (or even being responsible for setting up bank transfers) would make him more aware of the cost of things.