Would you separate in these circumstances

[PinkertonRab]

AIBU to want a divorce?

I’ll try keep it short. Together 20 years in total since our early 20s. 4 children aged 11, 8, 5 and 3. I’m the main breadwinner (we both work) but also completely fed up with doing 90% of all household tasks and 100% of mental load and DIY. We have argued about this forever.

Sometimes DH improves for a short while with washing and hoovering but it rarely lasts. More recently, he genuinely believes he is actually doing his fair share - it’s delusional but he’ll wash up once and then refer back to it in the argument when I say I’m sick of him doing nothing.

He’s an excellent dad and hands on with school run and playing with kids but that also means he’s the ‘fun’ parent while I remind them to tidy their room or brush their teeth. He’s a kind person who I know loves me works full time (longer hours than me) and can do some tasks if I ask. But there is inability to see any task that needs doing, and unable, and seemingly unwilling to learn any basic diy. If I don’t fix it, it stays broke. I deal with all admin, bills, insurance, holidays etc

I am just so tired of the same argument. If it hasn’t changed in 20 years then it isn’t going to. I’m worn out, snappy, fed up. My life would run so much smoother without chasing round after an overgrown child who takes no responsibility for anything. If I hadn’t have taken the Christmas tree down, I’d be willing to bet it would stay up til this Christmas.

Both DH and the kids would be devastated if we split. Is this just how life is? I’m not looking for perfect or anything exciting- just an actual partner doing their share. He creates more work for me. I’ve lost respect and am noticable withdrawn from relationship but feel awful breaking up family when he’s not done anything ‘wrong’ and like I’m selfish.

YABU - this is life and not worth the upset to the kids
YANBU - a divorce is best long term

Does such an app exist? Please share!

Emotionally, you sound entirely checked out from him. I appreciate what irks you are all of the practical / homely things, but that's just one (not especially big IMO) part of a relationship.

Do you get on great, support each other, have a good physical relationship, have a laugh, raise your children on the same page...?

Because if you do, I'd do what I could to make the relationship work and then farm out whatever else I could i.e. get a cleaner (£40-60 a week could hopefully be found in the budget somewhere), give the older kids a chore chart, automate things like insurance and appointments...

I had one like this. Once resentment is there it's hard to mind a way back. It's so relentlessly tedious dealing with these manchild types. I'm a million times happier on my own. It's hard working full time and being a single parent to teens but by God it's a much happier existence

I wouldn't leave it up to his discretion to decide what "his share" is; even with good intentions on both sides it's pretty common for partners to diverge on (1) what constitutes "good enough" in terms of cleanliness, tidiness, good/nutritious cooking, etc. and (2) how much one partner is contributing (not just how much time they are spending) vs the other on necessary shared responsibilities. If you haven't already, I would try brainstorming together and writing down all of the things each of you are doing that qualify as shared responsibilities, eliminating those that don't need to be done or can be outsourced (chores for children, perhaps having a housekeeper a few times a week), and equitably and realistically splitting up what remains. Consider the time each takes and also how pleasant or unpleasant it is for the doer - and don't forget tasks that aren't cleanly daily, weekly or monthly. Agree not just on who gets what task but when it needs to be done by - and if you give chores to young children decide in advance which adult they go to for help/advice and who's accountable if the chores don't get done. Keep communication open so if someone ends up with too much you can adjust, but only by mutual consent.

I would consider his longer hours when splitting things up, but also take into consideration if either of you have separate time commitments like a long commute, frequently being required to take work home or be on call, caring for extended family, classes or continuing education, etc. The goal should be that you each have roughly the same amount of free time in an average week. Right now it sounds like he thinks you are "in charge" and he will usually only do a task if you assign it to him - that doesn't make sense for adults and isn't fair or reasonable.

If he can't agree to a reasonable split or if he still can't do his share after all of that, then I would be thinking that he believes that his time and his needs and wants are more important than mine, which in turn would make me reconsider remaining in a relationship with him.

That sounds hard OP. Have you tried being explicit in asking him what to do? I know you shouldn’t HAVE to, he’s an adult who should just know that he should be doing his fair share, but if he is otherwise a good man it’s possible that it’s just become the status quo and he doesn’t really know what he’s supposed to be doing. “DH I’m going to get the dinner on can you run round the bathroom while I’m cooking”, “I’m going to get the kids bathed and ready for bed, can you get the uniforms and pack lunches out for tomorrow”. I would try and literally spell it out for him for a few days see if he is actually willing to help and just isn’t sure where to start or if he is infact just a lazy arse who isn’t willing to pull his weight. His responses will be telling.

I think this is really excellent advice.
Divorce is hard, and especially for the children. I feel tremendous guilt over the breakdown of my marriage and what subsequently happened to my children. I'm in my 60s now, and it seems never ending..

I agree with this.

If it works, the great, you’re training him to know what needs doing and eventually he’ll be doing it without you asking.

If this is the main problem and he isn’t going to change after 20 years, couldn’t you hire a cleaner/housekeeper for a few hours a week? Cut your hours back a bit? (All if you can afford it).

Not saying you should need to do any of this but it might take some of the strain off you. It’s a less drastic solution than separation.

if you have four kids, I suspect you’ll both be doing a lot more than most people
on here. Will give you a break, which is half the battle.

Also flabbergasted you’ve had 4 kids while being the breadwinner and doing all the work!!

You both work full time yet you do 90% of jobs??? Unfortunately there is always one better parent; he knows if he doesn’t pay a bill, you will, he doesn’t clear up, you will, because you don’t want your children to suffer. I don’t really see a way out…..other than to leave him.

I was toying with the idea of starting a thread about posters on here accepting substandard partners and how depressing I find it. With phrases such as i know how you feel OP because my DH massively lacks empathy too or i know how you feel OP because my DH doesn't lift a finger to help me.

I understand that if you love someone, are tied to them through children/finances it must be hard to just walk away, so I didn't bother . But it rankles. Yanbu.

I totally understand how you feel. I was in a similar situation (well still am actually) but please think very carefully before you split.
3 years ago I became physically unwell. I barely left my bed for a year. This then affected my mental health. I became anxious, paranoid and agoraphobic. I then barely left home for a year. As a consequence we lost our home and business. My kind but lazy thoughtless DP stepped up to the mark. He supported our family single handed. He took more abuse than anyone deserved. He continued to be kind and patient and always there. He may have some failings but his good traits are 10 fold. If your DPs failings outweigh the good then yes absolutely go it alone but just weigh up and plus and minus list first.

Reddit users recommendations include apps like Tody and Sweepy, and another by a person who developed their own and is apparently free called MyChoreBoard. I need to get this set up myself. Your kids should all be helping, the 11 and 8 year old are capable of having a serious impact with regard to many chores. It's just a matter of making them a habit. Colour-coded laundry baskets which can be flattened for each child. They sort and put away own clothes. I sometimes think that modern parenting, which is already so difficult to juggle with work, is made so much worse as we now expect nothing of kids who 50 years ago were capable of running a household in the next village! My Mother talks about the 12 year old neighbour who landed in her house every time her Mother had a baby. She knew how to run the whole show! If they don't have devices, get something set up on fridge. I used to share a house with 6 adults abroad. It ran like clockwork with a very simple system. We had a laminated picture of a chore and our laminated names. On entering kitchen, I saw picture of recycling and my name under it. Everyone knew I was on recycling bins that week. Following week, my name moved under picture of hoover etc.

Out of interest, does he accept that the jobs need doing (eg things like laundry, dishwasher) or does he think they're something you choose to do that aren't strictly necessary? (Hoovering every day, having shiny taps etc, sees insurance and holidays as optional)?

I would be permanently seething to have all the shit jobs left to me but I'd be interested to know his "reasoning".

Oh, and don't entertain any suggestions from kids that they be paid for chores. Participating in chores is integral part of sharing a home. Your girls will bring that belief to future living situations as opposed to killing themselves trying to do everything themselves.

This. I checked out almost two years ago and we’ve just separated after 20 years together. I remember him saying “but I’m not a bad guy, it’s not like I physically or sexually abuse you…” and, well, that was the bar OP. So freaking low. Every day I was asking myself “is this it?” The sheer lack of care was astounding. Emotional and financial abuse was certainly there and he was so thoughtless at times. I feel free. But he still thinks I’ve thrown away something that could have been wonderful. We never would have reached that place though…

I bet though the counsellor will see right through it. They've seen it all before. Maybe keep a diary so he has nowhere to hide.

Could I suggest that the fact you've even gone to this level of detail in your head means that you know divorce is the right thing to do. You just feel bad about kicking the man-child out and making him live independently like a real man?

He will move out if push comes to shove, even if it means you, his parents and siblings (if he has any) and friends putting his stuff in a few carrier bags and driving him to his new bedsit.

You know he will still be an amazing dad to the kids, only every other weekend rather than every day.

You will of course still be doing all the DIY and taking the Christmas tree down, but at least everyone will know it's you doing it and not assume that it's him. And you will only be cleaning up the mess that you make.

I think your mind is already made up and you need to do it and be strong.

You don’t owe him life-long commitment because you have children together. My youngest is 2 and I genuinely thought things might change after he was born. We had gone through a lot of fertility testing and treatment between our kids and I guess it was easy to think that was one possible reason for our difficulties. But once your family is “complete” (actually hate that phrase but hard to find another) it often shines a beaming light on what will never change.

For two months, two years ago your DH pulled his weight.
Sit down without any children and with time to spare.
List the things he did well then and make a chart together of the way things could be as good now.
Divide the chores and display the list.

Devise and agree on a way where DH can be reminded without any nagging. Can he set up beeps in his phone calendar? Some modern way where you are not Bad Cop.

Each Sunday have a family meeting to discuss things on the family front - around the table with all of you.
No blaming but a time to express concerns, notify of changes and up coming events etc..
The kids are old enough now to take on some of their own chores and offer solutions to family problems.

Think afresh, start afresh. When old niggles start up again, reprogram ASAP.
You have a right to make your home appropriate and happy for yourself.

I couldn't live like this - well, I did for many years and it ended in divorce.

It's deliberate lazy shittiness 100% He is well aware of how unhappy you are and that's the price he's happy to pay for being a lazy bastard around the house and with all the family/parenting/life admin stuff. A bit of a whine and your sadness and exhaustion are a small price to pay for him sitting on the toilet for an hour whenever there's a job to be done, or having to be asked twenty times every single time

I wish more women would refuse to have kids with men like this - I did it too and it absolutely traps you. Looking back, he was always a lazy prick, but the problem was that it was not overwhelming until after I had kids with him.

And it's the frog boiling in water, of course.

In the end, for me, it was knowing he didn't care how miserable his choices were making me that ended my love for him. There was other stuff going on too, but that daily day in day out grind of a selfish twat who could do much better but doesn't want to and is happy to watch you grind yourself into the dirt trying to carry his load too - it just killed my love for him.

And of course they KNOW what they are doing. Otherwise they have brain damage and need to see a neurologist. They always manage to function perfectly well and understand concepts in any area of their life where it suits them.

At minimum, you should be making him pay for a cleaner/nanny/gardener whatever it is you need. Since he won't do his fair share, he can pay someone else to.

Oh, and nagging is an abusive term generally used by lazy twat men. It just means having to repeat yourself over and over and over or be an absolute doormat and total slave and continue to be ignored forever.

I doubt he will change OP, another man who cant cope with not being the one who earns the most and has to punish his partner by leaving all the domestic work to her.
Do you want to lay it on the line & give him one last chance?
Or get everything arranged behind the scenes, make it good & watertight so that he has no ability to further punish you.

Listing all DIY and paying for someone to promptly attend to it and cleaning every week is sensible.
Ask DH to pay them in cash. He then sees and handles the notes and how much money he could save for the family if he had time to do some extra things.

RTFT and based on your latest responses I think I was projecting a little. If most of this is down to housework and you still love him then I’m sure you can raise the possibility of separation again and go down the path of organising your home life so he takes on more responsibility. Sadly I reached breaking point and when my partner begged and offered to change it was too little too late.

You’ve said you still love him, so my advise is to outsource what you can.

Get a cleaner in once a week and extras for spring cleaning . Someone else to mow lawns (if any), and an ironing lady.

any online order companies for pre- made meals? Stock the freezer.

Tell DH he will be expected to cough up for 50% of the cost and you have reached the end of the road waiting for help.