AIBU - sparklers indoors should be illegal following Crans Montana deaths

[Onemorechristmas]

I know that there are specific indoors sparklers that are legal (and it is illegal to use outdoor sparklers indoors) but wouldn’t it be much simpler if all sparklers were illegal for indoor use? Isn’t it asking for trouble to say some are ok and some aren’t?

I’m being unreasonable - current legislation is sufficient
I’m NOT being unreasonable - legislation should be simplified such that no sparklers may be lit indoors

It’s venue specific, low ceiling, flammable materials etc and crucially lack of fire escape and no fire suppression system. Plenty of bars and restaurants have sparklers in the uk without incident eg cocktail bars or on birthday cakes. Proportional response is needed and in this case the tragedy is due to a combination of factors.

what should be done by all businesses is to review their evacuation plan, this is absolutely crucial for all establishments not just linked to gimmicks like sparklers

Yes, The Station nightclub in Rhode Island in 2003. Almost identical causes (pyrotechnics and flammable ceiling) resulting inevitably in a very similar deadly flashover fire. No sprinklers.

Also the flashover first at the Stardust nightclub in Ireland in 1981. Caused by an electrical fault but similar issues with a flammable ceiling and insufficient exits.

Before that there was the flashover fire at Cocoanut Grove in Boston in 1942. Basement with one exit staircase, flammable ceilings, locked exits.

Switzerland does have fairly robust fire safety standards. It seems clear that the bar did not adhere to the regulations. People always say lessons will be learned but the learning seems very slow.

Those poor kids.

There is a list of nightclub fires on Wikipedia. The most recent one in the UK is 1999. Nobody died. Before that, it’s Denmark Place in 1980, which was an illegal bar about to be closed down, and before that, 1961.
It does sound like the UK has had a system for this type of venue which works for a long time (which makes Grenfell all the more disgraceful; we clearly know how to prevent deaths from fire when we don’t allow the system to be degraded).

I voted YABU because you can't legislate against stupity. Otherwise you'd need laws against things like having a bonfire in your bedroom or using the toaster while in the bath.

Also UK regulations tend to be some of the most stringent in the world - it’s easy to forget that many “superior” countries have more lax regulation.

And culturally we do tend to follow the rules we have got, while there are some places where rules are strict in theory but everyone ignores them.

The staff may not have known that there was a flammable ceiling.

I mean, it’s a foam ceiling in a wooden panelled building. It’s not their fault and they may have been told to do it (and they’ll have paid a heavy price) but it’s obviously unsafe.

The promo video only seemed to show this happening upstairs; maybe they’d been told not to in the basement but did it anyway or misunderstood. Only the owners and staff know.

Switzerland has reasonably robust fire regulation. A minimum of two exits are required for a venue of this size and there are minimum exit size requirements. Fire extinguishers are required to be in place. There are regulations regarding the flammable properties of soundproofing material. There are also regulations requiring specific permission to use pyrotechnics/ indoor fireworks in such venues.

The issue here doesn’t appear to be around the regulations themselves, rather compliance and the robustness of inspections and enforcement: much like Grenfell. It should be noted that the Swiss response has been very swift in terms of investigating since the incident, whereas in the UK this process always seems to be shambolic.

There may be an element that because Switzerland is a very law abiding and safe country, where such incidents are extremely rare and there are very low crime rates in general, that enforcement was lax but that is speculation. The authorities have taken very swift action though to issue a preliminary report on the suspected cause and to open a criminal case against the owners of the bar.

Horrific for the victims and families. Many of those inside didn’t stand a chance.

I was a bit 🤨 at the statement the owners put out saying they were struggling to eat and sleep in the aftermath but without a single mention of the fact that many people are dead and their families are suffering.

Someone should be going to prison over this. There have been cases of many people being killed due to other people's greed and ineptitude in this country (Grenfell, Hillsborough, Zeebrugge) and their families receiving no justice. I only hope the Swiss do it differently.

They would appear to be more like indoor fireworks rather than the sort of sparklers we have in 5th Nov, but my first thought was that whatever the material used on the ceiling, it was evidently so dangerously flammable, it should never have been used in the first place.

With respect, please watch the following video demonstrating the enormous difference in flashover times depending on whether the materials are natural or synthetic.

There are reasons for stringent regulations about this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=87hAnxuh1g8

15 year olds shouldn’t have been there. I believe one of the named victims was 14. But in Switzerland 16 years olds can drink wine and beer so those 16 and over were there legitimately.

That is terrifying. Did staff do nothing about this??

I believe they weren't "sparklers" as we normally think about them (hold on your hand and write your name in the sky on bonfire night), but Ice Fountain candles (see picture of one for sale in Waitrose).

Yes, I know all that.

Doesn't negate the point that the sparklers were the source of the flame and that fires have been caused by them. No sparklers in bottles = no flames near the flammable material.

Clearly, if you run a venue and indoor fireworks were banned you simply wouldn't have them to put in the bottles in the first place.

I agree 100% on the materials on the ceiling but think all sources of fire should also be removed or minimised.

the foam across the ceiling seems to have been the main issue here

Indoor sparklers and fireworks are daft, but then candles aren’t particularly safe either.
the sparklers they used looked like the ones you get for birthday cakes (which I personally hate and would never use, but then again I’m not into pyrotechnics, but many do use them with no problems).
as with so many tragic events, it’s a series of small errors which lead to a catastrophic one, in this case you have:

1. foam ceiling, which as I understand may or may not have been up to building regulations
2. lots of people crammed into a very small space (which may or may not have been over capacity)
3. indoor fireworks
4. fireworks being held at height, so as not to injure customers, but not enough clearance of the foam ceiling.
5. a narrow staircase, and fire exits which may or may not have been properly lit
6. toughened glass which may or may not have contributed to the loss of life
7. a flash fire, which caused immediate fumes and thick black smoke making it very, very difficult to exit the building.
8. a high number of young people, with no apparent leadership, until the emergency services got there, and even though they arrived extremely quickly, the basement was already an inferno.

the Swiss government are working at speed and looking to get answers to all the questions, and a pertinent question that is likely to arise, will be who decided of the fireworks in the first place? Was it management and if so was a risk assessment carried out? Or was it punters who brought them and requested the servers put them on the bottles of champagne (not exactly safe having alcohol and flame either when you think about it).Yes of course there are numerous ‘if only’s’, it’s absolutely heart breaking for everyone involved, and there will be huge trauma for the sights that were witnessed, and even more so for the revellers who did escape, no doubt massive trauma on various levels for them.
I think it’s important not to have a knee jerk reaction and immediately ban indoor fireworks (again I dislike them, but then I loath loud outdoor fireworks and I’d ban the bloody lot of them, but I appreciate that wouldn’t be appropriate either! ), it’s all just very, very sad and horrible, and I can’t begin to imagine how absolutely horrific it must be for everyone who was caught up in it.

You cannot remove all possible sources of fire e.g. electrical faults. It is not either/ or. Indoor “sparklers” or pyrotechnics should not be used in venues like this (and, indeed, require specific permission in Swiss law, although whether the particular ones used in this case fell within those regulations is unclear to me) and there should be no highly flammable materials used in walls and particularly ceilings, especially in a basement in a crowded public venue.

Agreed. Although most owners of such venues are not sufficiently knowledgeable to carry out fire safety risk assessments in my view. It should always be done by an experienced professional.

We don’t know how Swiss legislation compares with our own, but in Britain they would be breaking the law for locking the fire escape and there is a high chance that the local authorities would have had tough rules on ceiling cladding post-Grenfell.

Sparklers shouldn't have caused this catastrophe. Fires happen for several reasons, and the venue should have had some level of protection. Unless there's a way to enforce proper fireproofing, sparklers should be banned, and probably candles too. This place was a death trap.