AIBU - sparklers indoors should be illegal following Crans Montana deaths

[Onemorechristmas]

I know that there are specific indoors sparklers that are legal (and it is illegal to use outdoor sparklers indoors) but wouldn’t it be much simpler if all sparklers were illegal for indoor use? Isn’t it asking for trouble to say some are ok and some aren’t?

I’m being unreasonable - current legislation is sufficient
I’m NOT being unreasonable - legislation should be simplified such that no sparklers may be lit indoors

I am horrified too at the ages involved - how the hell were they in there -nit tgat this makes any difference if they were 30 , but it shies a lack of giving a shit about anything really other than making money

where they ok for a load of 15 and 16 year olds to be in there? I think the fact there were shows a general disregard for legal-probably all about making cash - Dont care if it’s huge entity or a family business - same rules apply - being a family business doesn’t mean the law doesn’t apply

The legal drinking age (for some drinks) in Switzerland is 16, so the bar wouldn’t have been breaking laws by having 16yr olds present

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/thirty_days_only/5468708-crans-montana-disaster?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

The cladding was very flammable too.
Hard to believe that people stood there filming before trying to flee.

Apparently use of them is widespread in venues now. Wasn’t a thing in my clubbing days. (Smoking was normal however). But this is last of a series of similar events with high death tolls

Thanks for the link. I saw the thread but wondered what people thought about the specific issue I posted about. It feels like something had to come out of it. Some kind of lessons learnt and action taken. We’ll see more of course once we know more about what laws/regulations were/weren’t broken

I agree, OP. Sure, all buildings should be fire safe and have procedures but the risk of an actual fire breaking out should be minimised too (hence, for example, no smoking in football stands any more since Bradford). No indoor fireworks = reduced fire risk. Cellar bars are always going to be evacuated via stairs and have low ceilings - the cladding and the fireworks are the biggest issues.

People ignore bans... and it wasn't the sparklers themselves that caused the issue, it was people getting the waitresses to go on to their shoulders, combined with highly flammable insulation, that enabled this fire.

Fires have started in venues because people let off Fireworks, despite them being banned.

Its quite incredible, that after Grenfell these materials are still in use, not least in 1000s of building here in the UK.

Buildings need to be safe for what people who have been drinking will do, in other words, make them idiot proof.

It passed three safety checks. Sixteen year olds were drinking legally. The issue will be whether management condoned and risk assessed the barmaids climbing on each other’s shoulders for the sparkler/champagne service or not.

As there are previous promotional videos of it, the management were clearly aware. Unfortunately the barmaids who did it that night are probably dead.

mmmmm as they (the waitresses) were the sober ones & probably older, that may not be correct.

They were not to know that something that had been done on numerous occasions would cause this, its not on the staff there that night.

One TV pundit has suggested a spray had been used on the ceiling, possibly a glue of some kind for decorations.

I feel desperately sorry for the people who are responsible in some way. The outcome of what must have seemed just great fun is unimaginable.

I advocate fireworks should be organised displays only (see any thread about November 5th I have made comments on). By extension no sparklers would be sold.

Thoughts for the family and friends of those who died, especially those awaiting confirmation.

They say they were inspected, but showing an inspector the escape routes to pass the inspection, but in practice having those escape routes locked or barricaded is absolutely negligent. I was at a soft play yesterday and saw one of the fire escapes was broken / locked but there was a clear sign with arrows showing where the nearest fire escape was.

A fire-retardant spray should have been used on the foam; we don’t know if it was and it appears from old social media posts, that the owners did a DIY job of refitting. I don’t know how, during the safety checks, it would be possible to know whether the foam was treated or not unless the owners were simply asked. A criminal case has been opened.

Given that the bar had capacity of 300 split between two floors, and about 200 have been either killed or hospitalised (mostly with severe burns) I doubt many on the lower floor escaped. The videos circulating online are more likely to have come from screengrabs of lives than the original phones.

People don't ignore the UK bans on smoking in football stands.

Generally, a venue wouldn't ignore an actual ban for fear of being reported.
For a start, the ceiling isn't the only risk - hair, furnishings, curtains . I've seen paper napkins go up in flames after contact with candles. Many pubs here now have fake candles.

It seems the sound proofing was a result of complaints about noise.

A fourteen year old Swiss girl has been identified as one of the dead. The fact that they’re so young makes it so sad.

sparklers, candies, anything like that should be banned. There are plenty of battery powered alternatives that could be used instead. Although what they decide to do abroad is up to them

On another safety note about being abroad, back in the day i remember seeing a programme investigating fire escapes in high rise holiday flats in spain that didn't have stairs (they just had a four foot jump from floor to the next half floor) within the emergency stairwell that fleeing people would have to make. Terrifying. You just don’t think about these things unril you gave need of them and then find a fire door us barricaded or there isn’t one or whatever. Those poor people. Just awful.

When pissed, people ignore a lot of things.... Drink Driving is banned, yet 10s of 1000s break this ban every year, over 100 drivers each day are caught.

My point is flammable materials shouldn't be used in venues such as this, where the materials are in direct contact with the public.

"Generally" its the very rare occasions where these tragedies happen.

Another aspect I heard mentioned by eyewitnesses is that there were queues outside as the venue was full. When the bouncers were alerted to the fire, they rushed inside and the people queuing pushed in after them, blocking the exit.

There’s a side door too but it was locked with a frequently changed code, to stop people getting in that way.

As this was one of the only bars who served sixteen year olds it was popular with a younger crowd. I’d hope most people would have the sense not to push into a burning building, and to evacuate immediately, but it seems that didn’t happen here.

I think it’ll come down to the sound-installation foam not being treated (or not regularly enough) with fire retardant spray, and the management allowing/encouraging unsafe practices (for the staff to go on each other’s shoulders with the sparklers).

Ultimately the buck stops with the owners. Many lives might have been saved by the people there acting more sensibly and faster, but the fire should never have started.

The bar was definitely negligent. Whether the responsibility goes further comes down to how good the inspection regime is. Did the owners, or staff, need to deliberately fake the existence of an effective emergency exit (move stuff and unlock things and then move it back afterwards) or do the inspectors simply note the emergency exit sign and tick the box without looking to see if it is actually usable?
I imagine the owners might also argue that the responsibility lies with staff who blocked the exits rather than owners who built the bar intending the exit to be usable; they seem to have owned a number of businesses so it’s not clear how hands on they were.

The woman of the owner couple was at Le Constellation that night and escaped with arm burns. There was also old promo videos showing the champagne/sparkler service and bar staff on each other’s shoulders. So I don’t think there’s any way they can claim ignorance.

The UK already has robust fire safety legislation. The laws in Switzerland are for their government to decide.

It’s the Swiss cheese model of disasters (ironically): flammable ceiling foam, dangerous use of sparklers, locked emergency exits, possible overcrowding.
I am not sure much could have been done in the time even if everyone there had been sober, it sounds like the fire spread too fast to fight and getting everyone out though the narrow staircase would take time even with calm and compos mentis adults.