To not understand DD's thoughts about me

[Enlesio]

Anyone out there who understands child psychology?
11 year old DD.
Most gorgeous girl. Really, she is a wonderful, kind, beautiful and gentle little soul.
She shows me and demonstrates to me every day how much she loves me. I am 100% confident that we have a secure and loving relationship. She is very attached to me and always wants to be with me.
Yet, she is having intrusive thoughts about me that are really distressing her. She'll start crying and won't tell me what's wrong, but eventually after encouraging her to talk to me about why she's crying, she'll say she's having thoughts that say "I've got a bad mummy; my mummy isn't a good mummy; I want a different, better mummy; my mummy isn't as good as Evie's/Abigail's/Poppy's mummy." But these thoughts really distressing her and she gets extremely upset by them and tells them to go away but they won't stop. Then she gets petrified that she's upset me by having these thoughts and repeatedly says "Have I upset you by telling you that? Please don't believe it mummy, these are not my thoughts, they're lies, they're the very opposite to what I think". Sometimes she gets so distressed by these thoughts that she starts visibly trembling whilst crying silently with tears spilling down her cheeks. She gets lots of thoughts about how I look, too. She's forever telling me I look lovely, and she'll say "I think you look beautiful mummy". Then she gets thoughts that say "I think mummy's ugly/fat/dresses horribly/isn't beautiful" and then gets distressed by these thoughts and says they're the opposite to what is true. She feels bad, guilty, ashamed for having these thoughts and insists they're not what she actually thinks.
For context, she is suffering extremely high levels of anxiety over the past year and isn't sleeping well.
These intrusive thoughts only happen at bedtime as her anxiety rises.
What are they? Why are they so negative about me when I know full well she adores me? What exactly is going on?
Im finding it very complex and confusing and I don't know how to help her. It's quite hard to remain neutral when your DD is saying "My thoughts are telling me youre ugly, you're fat, you look terrible, your not as good at being a mummy as Molly's mummy, I wish I had a different mummy." Then crying in a truly heartbroken way and clinging to me begging for forgiveness and saying "Okease believe me mummy i do NOT think any of these things! These thoughts are coming into my head but I hatd them and they're the total opposite of what i really believe!"
Shes asking me how to make them ho away, but I don't know.
I completely out of my depth here.
Laying next to her as we speak after 2 hours of comforting and cuddling her through her anxiety and tears, and listening to her intrusive very negative thoughts about me, we've got white noise playing to help her settle to sleep. Yet she's had a really lovely, happy day, just like she always does.
I just feel like we are in a mess every evening and I don't know what to do.
This all started out of the blue in February.
Prior to that she fell asleep like a dream, slept through, no bedtime issues, no anxiety, no intrusive thoughts, no white noise needed.
Now it's like this every evening and the pair of us are both exhausted by it.
Can anyone explain why she's having such awful thoughts about me, when she clearly demonstrates every day how much she loves me?
And what do I do?

GP for a CAMHS referral. Whatever it is is not going away and you both sound like you need help. Hope you can get some answers x

Agree CAHMS or private therapy asap. Sorry OP, this sounds awful. I’m sure you can get through this. You sound great.

It sounds like OCD, or the beginnings of it. The intrusive thoughts attack the things you care about most. The key is not to fear the thoughts - to bring them on rather than trying to repress them. David Veale’s book is very helpful to read. Really sorry you’re going through this, but it’s great to be seeking support early in the process before compulsions start.
edited to agree yes camhs or private therapy asap! X

I'm no doctor, but it sounds like a form of OCD where you almost torture yourself with believing automatic thoughts. It's called Harm OCD .. thoughts that everyone gets however ridiculous to most people scare the daylights out of you.

It’s not about you, really, the issue is her anxiety. So that’s what needs to be helped. CAMHS via GP. Private therapy will be quicker.

I'm so sorry.
It sounds like OCD.

It is very distressing, but there is a lot of information and help out there. If you can afford private therapy I'd look into it.

Sending you massive virtual hugs.

Intrusive thoughts can be really distressing to experience. And quite often they are indeed the opposite of what we really feel and believe. I’ve only experienced them as an adult (about harming my child, which was so horrible to experience that I even find it hard to type here) but I gather they’re pretty common at all ages. For me, the thing that reduced my distress most was not counselling so much as learning that this was a thing, that it didn’t make me mad or bad, that it didn’t mean that was what I ‘really’ believed, and it was just a sort of protective system gone into overdrive.

@Enlesio

This is worth a read and offers insight and strategies for you both.

@TheWorstWitch99 @Mummyratbag
Interesting you both mention OCD; she has recently begun to obsessively wash her hands, they are getting sore and dry now, I need to buy a big tub of barrier cream as e45 isn't helping enough for the amount she's washing them. And I've begun to notice little things she's started doing like covering her hands with her jumper to touch door handles at home, arranging her slippers in an exact precise position before getting into bed, has to have a particular water drinks bottle for bed, no other water bottle will do, little routines that cause distress if broken....
She is honestly the most beautiful little girl, I don't want her to be feeling like this.
I feel like a failure. I've tried my hardest to be the best mum I can be, I'm calm with her, soft & gentle with her, understanding, I listen to her, give her my full attention, I'm happy around her, I role model positive behaviour. But she's got to 11 and is caught up in a mass of anxiety. I don't know where I've gone wrong😔.

Sounds awful, get some therapy if you can afford it

I genuinely can't afford private therapy. We don't have spare money each month. Our mortgage fixed rate ended last year and were pay hundreds a month more on our mortgage now. Its hit us hard and we are really struggling.
CAMHS is a 3 year wait in my area.
Oh help.
What causes OCD? Why would this develop in an 11 year old?
She is significantly struggling at school due to SEN after starting year 7 in September - this has all started since then. Could this have triggered OCD?
Does OCD cause these thoughts?

Dear OP, you haven't done anything wrong but your daughter definitely needs professional help to nip this in the bud (if possible). CAHMS referrals can take a v long time so if you can afford it then do go down the private route. A very big hug to you meanwhile. You sound like you are doing all the right things and giving her space to discuss her feelings.

It’s not entirely understood, but as with most mental disorders, it’s likely a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Some people simply have a genetic susceptibility to particular mental illnesses - just as is the case with physical illnesses.

Definitely sounds like ocd, I was the exact same as a kid. Separately in an unrelated incident at 18 (best mate died and I fell into a heavy depression and needed counselling) my therapist was able to tell me that these intrusive thoughts were not my real thoughts and ever since then I’ve been able to bat them
away when the come up. Sometimes it’s harder than normal but I’ve come a long way (39 now).

If you could get your daughter to a therapist that might be a good start :) She’ll be ok though because a) she feels she can talk to you b) you’re all over doing what’s right for her ❤️

OP - the camhs 3 year wait may well be just for Autism referrals. There are different departments. My dd had an eating disorder and OCD last year and was seen within a couple of weeks and given really good care (autism referrals are much longer near me 2-3 years and she is on the waiting list for that too but we’re going private in the new year for that) - talking therapy and a psychiatrist and then medication. Things turned around very quickly after that.

GP asap and tell them everything - don’t minimise the severity of what is going on.

Hope she’s ok ❤️

Agree that it sounds like ocd type symptoms. - egodystonic intrusive thoughts (Unwanted, distressing, not in line with own belief system). See gp for referral and also signposting to third sector or self help resources. Also if it really was sudden onset with no anxiety prior then ask if it’s possible or too late to investigate for PANDAS. Good luck, you sound like you are doing an amazing job.

Was she unwell before this episode? If so, it could be OCD brought on as a result of PANS PANDAS. Please have a read and see if it sounds accurate to your situation.

Yes, my feeling with my dd was that it’s a mental illness and cannot be helped. There was literally no rhyme or reason for it and she couldn’t explain it herself. It was simply like her mind stopped working properly and it was an episode that she had to come through, but the medication helped to accelerate her recovery.

I’ve had to prepare myself for the fact that she may have similar episodes in the future.

@Enlesio

"I feel like a failure"
"I don't know where I've gone wrong"

Please do not do this to yourself, it is not your fault.

You are doing everything a loving Mum would do, with compassion, understanding and support.

There many free resources online @Enlesio

Google is a mine of information, really inform yourself about best practices to manage the impact upon your beautiful girl and yourself.

Best wishes, it's so hard to watch your child suffer🌺

Do either you or your partner work in a role which has an Employee Assistance Programme? I work public sector, and our EAP has a 24 hour helpline for me or my family. As part of that package, we can access 6 sessions of specialist therapy. Can you check if it’s something either of your employers can offer?

As others have said, she needs professional help.

She may too young for this, but as someone who suffers from intrusive thoughts, it's useful to be able to spot and label them as such, and to be able to look at them almost from the outside as what they are. It's also helpful to understand in general that thoughts aren't what make you a good or bad person, it's what you do that determines that. My intrusive thoughts started around puberty, so I suspect hormones do play a part.

This is probably going to sound very silly, but giving the intrusive-thought voice a name and then sarcastically thanking it or acting like it's said something socially awkward helps me a lot because it takes the seriousness out of it and allows me to move on. So if my intrusive thoughts are telling me that everyone hates me, I'll think "thanks for that random observation, Brenda. Anyway, moving on..." or if it's telling me I should drop my phone down a drain, I say, "no I'm not going to do that right now, Brenda, thanks all the same." It genuinely amuses me sometimes: "You should smash that window". "Valuable insight, Brenda. As I was saying..."

I had exactly this as a child. Your post really resonated with me, and I remember it as a really upsetting time.

The same as your daughter, I adored my DM more than anyone, and then I'd get a horrible thought that I wished she was dead. Then days and days of upset about it, and worry that I'd think it again. And of course, when you try not to thing about it, it's the only thing you think about!

The reason it's about you is because she loves you so much. You are the one person she would never want to think anything bad about - if the thought didn't hurt her, it wouldn't cause this level of anxiety.

At the time, my DM didn't do anything and waited for me to grow out of it, but it was the 90s so people were less inclined to seek mental health support. I wouldn't say I grew out of it, but I came to recognise it for what it was - OCD and high anxiety. The trick is not to fight the thoughts - think them and let them pass without reaction, because it's the reaction which becomes the problem. Of course, this is difficult to do when you're little, but I remember someone describing them to me as 'brain farts' - just a stupid random thing that pops into your head and doesn't deserve analysis.

I don't know if this helps at all, but hopefully it makes you feel less alone with it.

OCD comes under the umbrella of anxiety disorders. It can be hugely distressing for the child and distressing to witness in your child (my DS has it) but with the right support it’s possible to manage. If your DD has SEN, then it’s not uncommon for high anxiety to spiral into one of the classic anxiety disorders, so it’s honestly nothing that you’re doing.

the handwashing and not touching things is a result of the intrusive thoughts - they’re connected. Her brain is telling her that if she doesn’t touch something/washes obsessively that it will neutralize the intrusive thoughts and they won’t be real/come true.

honestly, please please see your GP and also let her school know so they can support her and not make a fuss about any repetitive things she may do in school. You may find that the waiting list for OCD is much shorter than for other CAMHS referrals.

In the meantime, the book ‘When your brain gets stuck’ by Dawn Huebner is really great at explaining intrusive thoughts/OCD to kids. I’m so sorry as it’s so hard to watch your child go through it, but you and she are not alone and I promise you that help is out there

I know nothing about this kind of issue but I do know that it would be so much better if you could get her private therapy asap. If it's hard for you to afford it do you have parents who would be willing to pay? I have an 11 year old granddaughter in year 7 and if she was suffering like your daughter is and her parents were struggling to afford therapy I'd be paying for it myself like a shot.

OCD or the beginnings of psychosis I'd say. Private therapy, ASAP.