Embarrassed to be English

[Traballi]

Got ancestry results back recently and apparently I'm 98% English, tiny bit of Irish but not even Scottish or Welsh. It wasn't a surprise as already looked into family history and been here for centuries.

I'm actually embarrassed of my English lineage to be honest. What's there to be proud of with our appalling history of colonialism and more recent dallyings with the far right and flag shagging?

I see the British flag up where I live and I honestly cringe. I'm also married to someone who is from a country we have a history of conflict with too so that doesnt help although DH doesnt hate us excessively (won't name country in case outing but with our history of wars/ conflict/ invasion, it could be dozens of places lets be frank)

I guess I've had a different perspective on Englishness over many years through the people I know from overseas and I speak other languages too. I also went to a Catholic school (in England) which taught us about slavery and what happened in Northern Ireland. None of which was nice about the English (teacher was Irish). I'm grateful for these perspectives though as I wouldn't want to be brainwashed into being a blind patriot.

I have friends with strong Irish and Welsh roots and they have a real sense of identity to hold onto with it, ancestral languages that they're interested in and a feeling a pride.

If you're English, it's hard to feel like that unless you're in Tommy or Nige's crew, which makes me even less inclined towards patriotism tbh.

Does anyone else feel like this? It's a bit sad really. I'd love to at least be half something else to cling to that identity instead and ignore the English but.

Luckily my DC is only half English and has two other nationalities through DH, and is being brought up in Wales so will probably feel more Welsh. I'm also obtaining a passport from another country through DH soon and I'll be using that for all overseas travel as soon as I can so I can appear to be from there instead.

AiBU or do others feel like this? Being English just isn't cool.

I mean, Ireland is far less diverse and has far fewer immigrants than England, yet is still seeing widespread unrest due to what it perceives as ‘too many foreigners’. If they’ve reached this point when Ireland is still overwhelmingly white and a population a tenth the size of ours, how do they justify calling England racist when it took them far far longer to get to this stage?

Given the Vichy government weren’t a million miles away from Nazi ideology, it’s not hugely surprising that France didn’t do something about Germany sooner. A hard lesson to learn indeed.

In doing my family tree I’ve paid for the military information from Ancestry and was happy to find a lot of information about my great grandads on both sides and their efforts in France in WW2. They did so much good and risked their lives in the most horrific ways to sure people today - people posting on this thread - weren’t living under Nazi rule. Hell if we’d lost in WW2 my DH wouldn’t be here today, the British side of his dad’s side of the family would have been gassed along with their Eastern European relatives.

And I’m expected to feel embarrassed for this legacy, because of things that happened a long time before that? Well fuck that noise. I don’t hate myself or my fellow country men and women, I don’t have crushingly low self esteem that I think I should feel mortified because of an accident of birth and I certainly don’t hate the wonderful country I was lucky to be born in. Sorry that the OP and others do - but mate that’s a YOU problem

I think you need to brush up your knowledge of military history! Britain and France declared war on Germany and then sat around doing fuck all for the best part of a year, giving an unprepared Hitler time to prepare the Blitzkreig - a stellar fuck up of military strategy on the part of the British and French. What exactly was a largely undefended France supposed to do after the Allied troops evacuated via Dunkirk?

@Howmanycatsistoomany one thing I don’t need to do is brush up on my military history. Nowhere did I suggest that Britain was blameless in the rise of Hitler. And nor was France.

Sorry but we ARE blameless, and so is France. If ‘not taking action at the split second it retrospectively should’ve been taken’ is ‘blame for the rise of Hitler’ then the entire world is to blame and in particular the 90% of the globe that never even helped.

Yes the Brits and French are defo the bad guys of WW2

She's very skillfully steering clear of any posts that mention the "good" things that the English have done

🙄

@Playingvideogames do you not think The Treaty of Versailles and appeasement played any role at all?

An acknowledgement of a contribution to the emergence of something is of course not the same as responsibility for it. That lies entirely with Germany.

Agreed!

I feel like England is getting to be like a woman at this point - being blamed for the fuck ups of everyone else.
If anyone holds collective responsibilities it’s Eastern European countries who propped up Nazi beliefs with endless pogroms. My DH’s Jewish family on his dad’s side were driven out of what is now Ukraine whilst Hitler was still in nappies. So is it any surprise a Jew hating psychopath developed dangerous ideology and subsequent power in Europe?

But sure blame the Brits if it satisfies your self hatred.

I agree with you OP.

I think it is healthy to be ashamed of our ancestor's actions. It would be worse if we weren't ashamed

I am English. I don't feel personally responsible.
However I feel ashamed of what people from my country did in the past.

Why would I not. They caused huge destruction all around the world.

Also England caused a lot of destruction in our neighbouring country, Ireland.

People saying "well other countries did it too" are being defensive. No one likes to be the asshole country in the past but its important to look at our actions.

Get a grip OP. You’re just looking for a way to feel superior to your neighbours, and just like half the country you were hoping that a mystery x% Mediterranean or African would allow you to think ‘I’m not like you, I’m better’.

Absolutely sick of it.

A not-inconsequential minority use the St George's flag for an explicitly racist purpose, e.g. to signify to people of certain races and cultures 'you're not welcome here'. In doing so they're turning that flag into a racist symbol. And yet somehow it's the people who then reject or feel uncomfortable about using the flag who are blamed for viewing it as a racist symbol, as if it hasn't explicitly been used for that purpose.

You see @Garroty i don’t think that’s what the Raise The Colours people are doing. I think they are being very clever by putting up flags because it asks the big question - why do some people who live in this country, were born in this country, don’t think the national flag represents them? People like the OP, perhaps.

I’m sure there is a minority of people in this country who are actually disgustingly racist, in fact I listened to one on the Heretics podcast recently and was utterly appalled by his views. But there is a huge gulf between awful people like the bloke on the podcast, and the RTC group if one took the time to listen to them. It’s incredibly dangerous to presume the motivations of others without exploring the reasons behind their actions.

I also feel embarassed when people write on here

"Im so lucky to live in England. It is such a great country".

England is a great country, and it is a wealthy country, BECAUSE of the wrongs that England did im the past.

We plundered and stole from other countries

There are a lot of Defensive English people on this thread!

When someone says that you or your have ancestors have done somethng wrong, the instant common reaction is to be defensive.

Its similiar to how men deny that sexism exists against women. They get defensive

Why do you feel ashamed of things other people did?
Thats just weird and betrays a sense of self loathing
What about all the good things about England? All the wonderful things our ancestors did?
And pointing out other countries are less than perfect isn’t defensive - it’s a good point unless you expect others to- very much including the Irish- to feel shame as well?

Or maybe we're just a bit sick of constant threads slagging us off.

I'm Ashamed of actions that people connected with my country did in the past.

Im ashamed that England still benefits now from hurting others in the past

Its a natural feeling.

I have spoken to some German people who feel the same way

How is it healthy to be ashamed of the actions of other people? That you had no control over.

All countries have stolen and plundered from other countries.

But as it stand we live in an inclusive, liberal tolerant country with free speech and agency where women aren’t criminalised for what they wear or which men they sleep with. I am very glad I enjoy that kind of life. Women’s rights have been gained in England because of amazing women before us not stolen jewels

Sorry, that was to @Linnelaura2 but MN reloaded itself, of course, and it lost the quote.

Because we don't want to repeat the past.

Saying im ashamed of my ancestors actions, is a more norma feeling than saying

'Im so happy that people from England - raped, killed, invaded and colonised many others in the past!"

@Linnelaura2 are you familiar with something called “the Industrial Revolution”?

There is a huge amount of violent crime against women in England

Of course