Embarrassed to be English

[Traballi]

Got ancestry results back recently and apparently I'm 98% English, tiny bit of Irish but not even Scottish or Welsh. It wasn't a surprise as already looked into family history and been here for centuries.

I'm actually embarrassed of my English lineage to be honest. What's there to be proud of with our appalling history of colonialism and more recent dallyings with the far right and flag shagging?

I see the British flag up where I live and I honestly cringe. I'm also married to someone who is from a country we have a history of conflict with too so that doesnt help although DH doesnt hate us excessively (won't name country in case outing but with our history of wars/ conflict/ invasion, it could be dozens of places lets be frank)

I guess I've had a different perspective on Englishness over many years through the people I know from overseas and I speak other languages too. I also went to a Catholic school (in England) which taught us about slavery and what happened in Northern Ireland. None of which was nice about the English (teacher was Irish). I'm grateful for these perspectives though as I wouldn't want to be brainwashed into being a blind patriot.

I have friends with strong Irish and Welsh roots and they have a real sense of identity to hold onto with it, ancestral languages that they're interested in and a feeling a pride.

If you're English, it's hard to feel like that unless you're in Tommy or Nige's crew, which makes me even less inclined towards patriotism tbh.

Does anyone else feel like this? It's a bit sad really. I'd love to at least be half something else to cling to that identity instead and ignore the English but.

Luckily my DC is only half English and has two other nationalities through DH, and is being brought up in Wales so will probably feel more Welsh. I'm also obtaining a passport from another country through DH soon and I'll be using that for all overseas travel as soon as I can so I can appear to be from there instead.

AiBU or do others feel like this? Being English just isn't cool.

Anyone would think no other country ever had colonies, or had a slave trade! How would you feel if you turned out to be mostly e.g. French, or Belgian, OP? Let alone German!

Do the French, Belgians, Germans etc. beat themselves up about their own historic or more recent history? Do they despise their own flags because of these?

I know it is the law. I am not silly.
l also know that there are many many safe countries that these people cross to get to the UK. I also notice that the majority of the boat ls coming over are occupied by just males. I also notice that when they get here - they get homes/ food/ WiFi / money.
I notice no other country has this generosity.

I also notice the millions of pounds that the tax payer is having to fund for the cost of this . I also know Starmer has done fuck all “ to smash the gangs “

I mean the most recent ‘Empire’ attempt was ISIS, a group which murdered hundreds of thousands of people in the most barbaric ways as it attempted to gain control of entire countries to rule over in theocracy. Most Muslim countries are Muslim due to the Islamic Conquest, and were taken violently.

The entirety of South America is in existence in its current form due to Spanish and Portuguese Empire - an entire sub continent! They ‘should’ be native, yet nobody queries that instead they’re Hispanics speaking Spanish and Portuguese - again, with the land having been taken by force. Why is this never mentioned?

I'm saying that the appropriation of the St George's flag by racists who are using it as an explicitly racist symbol is comparable to the appropriation of the swastika by Nazis who used it as an explicitly racist symbol.

The swastika was not originally a racist symbol, but now in the western world that is its primary and most explicit meaning.

Racists who are using the St George's flag for racist purposes are changing its meaning and turning it in to a racist symbol.

I'm not making a broader statement about Nazis or flag shaggers; I'm talking about the way in which the meaning of symbols can change depending on how they're used. And I'm pointing out that it's not reasonable to blame people for being uncomfortable about the St George's flag as a symbol when a large minority are using it for the express purpose of being racist.

Oh and I where have I said “ hatred “

The demand for our public services: schools/ health far outweighs the supply. It’s that simple.
We simply cannot afford to accommodate and house the rest of the world who decide to come to the land of the milk and honey. Free homes / schools / healthcare. What’s not to like?
As I said before, there are many other safe countries that these people are passing through to get here.
The Uk is a laughing stock.
No where have I expressed hatred . Only common sense.
This is typical left rhetoric: say the word “ immigrant “ and you are branded racist.
Disgusting.

Get a grip.

The only time I’ve felt uncomfortable about being English was visiting my friend in Belfast about 18 years ago.
She’s from Derry originally, came to Bristol to do her masters, then moved to Belfast. I went to visit her and it wasn’t until her friends found out that I was from a council estate in the South West and not “that dirty capital” that they warmed to me. I remember one of them saying “Ahhh. So you’re also one of The British Isles Forgotten People.” 😂

I have to admit, I do feel uncomfortable now about wearing an England football shirt in public thanks to recent events. My brother-in-law wrote “Not a fascist, just love the footy” on his shirt for the Women’s Euros… We laughed at first but then found it kind of sad that supporting your national team now makes you worry that you look racist, even when that is far far far from the truth.

But the UJ isn’t a symbol. It’s a national flag, not an ideological one like Pride. There is no other symbol of the UK, therefore its one and only meaning is ‘the United Kingdom’. Hence it being used at the Olympics, and aboard naval vessels in international waters. It denotes a country and that is all. It’s also a very beautiful flag, as commented on by many non-Brits to me.

The Nazi flag, the Communism flag, the Pride flag, these are all ideological because they denote nothing but ideology. They can’t have any other meaning, because the meaning is explicit and cannot ‘change over time’.

Unless we’re to come up with another flag for the UK, which would undoubtedly also then become ‘racist’ over time, we have the Union Jack, and unless you think the British should be the 1 nationality in the world who should not fly their own flag, then there should be no issues in anyone flying it even if some people who do are ‘far right’ (in quotation marks as nobody really knows what that means any more).

Right now we have the Irish and Scottish flags being flown at some very controversial ‘anti immigration’ marches. Are they now, by your logic, racist and should not be flown?

I don't think you should just give it up, but equally I don't think you can just ignore what's happening to it; or dismiss it as just being a tiny minority who are doing it. Maybe there should be equivalent movement to use the flag as a symbol of inclusivity and diversity as an attempt to reclaim it, but I can't imagine that happening in country where Reform are currently set to be the next party of government.

Visit Cairo as a modestly dressed yet unaccompanied woman in your twenties. The men there are disgusting pigs. Made me proud to live in a civilised country.

London has an enormous population of people of Irish descent. More so than any other region, bar possibly Liverpool.

Well 80% of my village was destroyed by RAF bombers in 1944, the next village to ours (Aunay-sur-Odon) was completely obliterated, hundreds of civilians killed. So I'm not sure those Normandy villagers felt the way you think they did!

@Howmanycatsistoomany well yes, what a pity France didn’t do more to stop German aggression earlier. Unless of course you’re suggesting it would have been preferable to let them win.

The Union flag and the St George's flag are not the same thing, and they aren't interchangeable.

I don't accept your suggestion that national flags are not ideological, or that they only denote one thing. The meaning of any flag (and any symbol) is not immutable. Every symbol in the world is given meaning and context by the way in which it is used. A national flag can be a symbol of the country in question but it can also denote a government, a population, military power, patriotism, national ideals etc. For instance, many Americans view the Stars and Stripes as both the symbol of their country, and as a symbol for freedom, bravery and power.

The beauty of the flag is subjective and also surely irrelevant?

Re the Scottish flag being used for racist purposes - yes, my position is that if this continues, the Scottish flag will start to be associated with racism in the way that the St George's flag now is.

See I’m very proud to be English but I also adore France and the French, and this is so unfair. France shared a land border with Germany, they were in a very different position to us and even after the Armistice of 22 June, the resistance never ended and Paris was liberated effectively by itself. More French died than British by quite a long way, they made huge sacrifices of the type that thankfully we were never faced with.

But those inferences are all transient, the one thing that stays the same over the years is ‘this is the flag of X’. In the 1990s, the Union Jack had a brief flirt with being seen as an icon of ‘global Britain’ and Britpop.

I don’t believe the Scottish flag or Irish flag will ever be seen as inherently racist in the way the UJ is because this isn’t actually about racism - it’s about a deep seated loathing of the English by a minority of ‘Celts’ who are fanatical in their belief that everyone should hate us and see us as inherently sinister, dressed up as ‘concern about racism’.

I think it comes down to the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
Nationalism implies a feeling of superiority to others but patriotism just implies you support and want the best for your country.
I don’t think we should let racists own the Union flag or the St George’s flag. It belongs to all of us - whatever race/religion

As a PP pointed out it’s a national flag not a flag of ideology. What would reclaiming it look like? Banning certain poor people from waving it. Given I don’t support communism I wouldn’t like that either.

@Playingvideogames France had a golden opportunity to seriously weaken Hitler in the Rhineland in 1936 and were also enthusiastic in their appeasement.

This view might well be regarded as “unfair” but it’s certainly not as unfair as the suggestion that all those members of the British military who gave their lives to help liberate France were not welcome as was implied.

Indeed.

It's bizarre how some Irish talk about colonisers (usually when they are talking Gaza, as the white saviours of the helpless Palestinians who obviously have no agencyat all, accordingto some) as if their history is pure.

It isn't. Many/most countries have problems of the past that isn't the fault of, or blamed on the current population.

Only half wits associate the St George flag with racism

Maybe its just you 🤔

Yep. Self flagellation is rife for some.

Of course they were welcomed. I think that poster meant more that half the country was flattened by the time the Allies got there. Rhineland was a lost opportunity but I don’t think that negates the deaths of hundreds of thousands of French who died deaths every bit as heroic as the Brits. I can’t stand this ‘cheese eating surrender money’ rubbish because firstly it’s utterly disrespectful to those who died, secondly because the surrender may well have been us had we shared a border with Germany. The UK is successful in its defence because we are an island nation who have over the years developed an incredible Navy. France didn’t have this option.

The spiralling costs, the money-guzzling saturation of public services - particularly health and social care - are mainly due to our rapidly ageing population. The costs of accommodating asylum seekers during processing is minuscule in comparison.