Embarrassed to be English

[Traballi]

Got ancestry results back recently and apparently I'm 98% English, tiny bit of Irish but not even Scottish or Welsh. It wasn't a surprise as already looked into family history and been here for centuries.

I'm actually embarrassed of my English lineage to be honest. What's there to be proud of with our appalling history of colonialism and more recent dallyings with the far right and flag shagging?

I see the British flag up where I live and I honestly cringe. I'm also married to someone who is from a country we have a history of conflict with too so that doesnt help although DH doesnt hate us excessively (won't name country in case outing but with our history of wars/ conflict/ invasion, it could be dozens of places lets be frank)

I guess I've had a different perspective on Englishness over many years through the people I know from overseas and I speak other languages too. I also went to a Catholic school (in England) which taught us about slavery and what happened in Northern Ireland. None of which was nice about the English (teacher was Irish). I'm grateful for these perspectives though as I wouldn't want to be brainwashed into being a blind patriot.

I have friends with strong Irish and Welsh roots and they have a real sense of identity to hold onto with it, ancestral languages that they're interested in and a feeling a pride.

If you're English, it's hard to feel like that unless you're in Tommy or Nige's crew, which makes me even less inclined towards patriotism tbh.

Does anyone else feel like this? It's a bit sad really. I'd love to at least be half something else to cling to that identity instead and ignore the English but.

Luckily my DC is only half English and has two other nationalities through DH, and is being brought up in Wales so will probably feel more Welsh. I'm also obtaining a passport from another country through DH soon and I'll be using that for all overseas travel as soon as I can so I can appear to be from there instead.

AiBU or do others feel like this? Being English just isn't cool.

No we aren’t.

We just refuse to feel shame for it

How utterly bizarre to feel shame for things done generations before I was even born.

We also focus on the overwhelmingly good things the English have done.

Tell me a country with an unchequered history. I’ll wait

Also isn’t tarring all people in 1 country with the same brush a little racist?

Do you do this to African countries?

Ah yes, the flag of supporting depressing and harmful sexist stereotypes. Sooooo progressive.

I will spell it out for you since you have no comprehension skills - I never said any other country had a proud and clean history.
I am saying people in this country are very ignorant of their own history and the impact on the colonies as well as other countries. Never said other nations were not. This thread is about being embarrassed to be English.

I am embarrassed about the national ignorance with the pride in the Crown Jewels, The British Museum, Winston Churchill being considered one of the Greatest Brits, the white-washing of history.

That not what racism is.

African countries have been the instigators of some of the most hideous civil war and mass killing imaginable. They’re still beautiful countries and their historical and cultural significance is greater than the sum of their wrongdoing.

I will chip in as long as it’s a one-way ticket. 😄

Nobody is ignorant of it.

In fact it’s a huge part of our education system’s curriculum. Being a history nerd, I’m fully involved in what my DD learns in her secondary school lessons, I quite assure you nothing is being whitewashed.

being being aware of it doesn’t mean we must feel shame or embarrassment over it. Why would I be ashamed over the Crown Jewels?! I didn’t steal any. Why do you feel ashamed? Have you something to do with Churchill?

Well actually saying a whole race of people are ignorant is pretty racist.

Well given we are here discussing it, and this is a mainstream chat website, and it has been a mainstream topic both in the news and on the radio, and everyone seems to be able to come to the table with at least a basic understanding of it, can you please say why exactly you think we’re ’ignorant’ of our own history compared to others?

A not-inconsequential minority use the St George's flag for an explicitly racist purpose, e.g. to signify to people of certain races and cultures 'you're not welcome here'. In doing so they're turning that flag into a racist symbol. And yet somehow it's the people who then reject or feel uncomfortable about using the flag who are blamed for viewing it as a racist symbol, as if it hasn't explicitly been used for that purpose.

Before it was appropriated by the Nazis in the 1920s the swastika was a Sanskrit symbol for good luck and well-being. Nobody in Europe now thinks you could use the swastika for that purpose; racists have given it another meaning which is now the predominant one in the western world. If racists don't want the same thing to happen to the St George's flag, perhaps they should stop using it as an overtly racist symbol?

I've got no time for people who hand-wring over historical injustices. If you think there's something wrong with being English now, then do something good with your life to change it, now.

You're not responsible for historical problems and in any case, the UK has been just as much a beacon of culture, progress and civilization as it's been an oppressor - the two things absolutely ran side by side throughout history.

I have no English heritage, but its a shame that the English are so willing to give up their identity to the Far Right. If you are ashamed of being what you are, then guess who will hijack the Englishness and make it really something to be ashamed of. Scottish people were also heavily involved in Empire. The NI protestant community is historically descended from Scotland. If your DH is from a country in Europe then did you ever wonder why there are places in Africa and the Caribbean that are French speaking? Or why South Americans speak Spanish/Portuguese? The Inquisitions completely erased peoples ethnicity and they are still Catholic with Spanish/ Portuguese surnames to this day. I know this is true in parts of Africa too, but that was mainly through missionaries not mass forced baptisms and forced marriage. Fancy going to Iran and asking them what they did with all the Zoroastrans? Should these people also be ashamed of their ethnicity? Or do you think being English is a bit boring more than anything else?

Couple of thoughts: Museums, syllabuses in schools etc have gone all out on those aspects of history fairly recently. They've been known about for ever but obviously attitudes have changed to that history. 1920s and 30s children were proud to celebrate Empire Day. Please don't shout at me, it's just a fact. Slavery was abolished in England in the early 19th C. Took much longer in other countries.
At the point the British Empire was expanding, other European countries had huge empires too. Germany, Belgium, France, the Netherlands all had huge territories and fought to keep them until surprisingly recently. Ghana became independent from the UK in 1957, Algeria became independent from France in 1959 or so.
We are a nation that's been invaded and settled since the dawn of time. Romans, Vikings, French....
Some of our history is grim, Scottish clearances, Irish famine but it's not useful to judge past history through the lens of the present. As others have said, there are wonderful things about this country. I'd be interested to know where you'd have preferred to come from?

I’d like to know what OP would rather be? @Traballi

Why don’t you spell out who these other countries are though?

I’d like to know too.

Thanks to a free press these issues can be discussed and reported on without consequence or punishment.

I think showing this poster that people very much do know the history of this country is upsetting their agenda that they are soooo superior to all the flag shaggers and aren’t, as they likely think, smarter and more knowledgeable than the next person.

OP has only responded to the few posts at the beginning that agreed with her. She's pure ignorance at its finest.

I’m not sure we can quite compare anyone in this country to actual Nazis though. The people who use the flag to be racist are in the overwhelming minority and it’s important to not let them win.

@Garroty are you seriously comparing the use of the St George flag now to the use of the swastika by the Nazis? When Reform win it will in some part due to idiotic views like this.

Agree they're a minority and shouldn't be allowed to win.

A lot of the people using the St George's flag in this way actually are neo-Nazis, so in that way are directly comparable. I appreciate this is not the same as having a country actually run by Nazis, of course.

There are many contexts where seeing the St George's flag isn't a particular cause for concern - national events, certain sporting events etc. Gammons love to pretend that the flag is becoming unacceptable everywhere, but it's generally pretty clear when it's being used for racist purposes.

Do you have any understanding of history at all? You do realise everyone has colonised everyone at some point? It’s kind of how countries formed. The English really aren’t that special in the regard, maybe just a bit better at it than some others.

It’s the same with the whole slave trade thing. There are more slaves alive now than there have ever been in the whole of history. We actually abolished the slave trade, something definitely not to be embarrassed about.

I don't know why you are quoting me in particular and why you think I need to read those books. I was merely pointing out, as have the vast majority of people on this thread, that no country is flawless but England has a lot to be proud of in its history. I will go further. England is one country in the United Kingdom and the history of our four nations is intrinsically linked, both good and bad. I am pleased to be both English and British.

I mean let’s not forget actual Nazi sympathisers. People seems to forget Italy was an axis power, and many more countries had Nazi sympathies - de Valera (Taoiseach) actually called his German ambassador to offer condolences on the death of Hitler! (Important to say this isn’t representative of the views of the Irish people, just their government, and thousands of Irish were killed after voluntarily joining up). But it’s interesting that in these aforementioned examples it’s easy to separate the actions of government from the fabric of their people, and not blame those alive today, yet with the English it seems absolutely imperative we are put on the hook for every action of our government from hundreds of years ago.

A not-inconsequential minority use the St George's flag for an explicitly racist purpose, e.g. to signify to people of certain races and cultures 'you're not welcome here'. In doing so they're turning that flag into a racist symbol. And yet somehow it's the people who then reject or feel uncomfortable about using the flag who are blamed for viewing it as a racist symbol, as if it hasn't explicitly been used for that purpose.

It's bit wet to just give it up tbh.
In most, if not every country racists and nationalists use the local flag. I saw neonazis waving mine at protests. Doesn't mean it's tainted forever. It's just logical they use their flags. Often they also add another which is for specific movement or includes state symbols.