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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think no one can define living as a woman

306 replies

funtimess · 27/12/2025 15:34

if you are a biological man.

Or indeed define living as a man if they are a biological woman.

What is the definition, how do you define a person ‘living" as the opposite sex?

AIBU to think that nobody is going to be able to define this unless they resort to regressive stereotypes.

YABU - I can define this for you without using regressive stereotypes.
YANBU - You are right, you can’t define this without using regressive stereotypes.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
ScarlettSunset · 28/12/2025 07:37

Living as a woman is such a meaningless term.
I live as a woman, because I was born female and have no choice.

I do 'present' as a stereotypical female, with long hair and make up. I wear makeup every day, even if I'm not leaving the house and won't see anyone else, because I like ithe way I look with it. That's not what means I am living as a woman though.

All of the other women in my immediate family don't wear make-up. They are still women and are living as women.

All of the other women in my family gave up work when they had children, and have never worked since (even after children grown up and left home). I had a child and continued to work, as I had no one else to support me. As a result I've still got a career (in a male dominated field) and am the family breadwinner. I am still a woman and living as a woman.

My hobbies and interests include some stereotypically female activities. They also include stereotypically male activities like watching and enjoying football. I am still a woman and living fully as a woman.

If I was to die in a remote place, and not be discovered for years and years, my remains would still be identified as that of a woman. So when I die, I'll die as a woman after having lived my life as a woman regardless of how I present, or anything I do.

Shedmistress · 28/12/2025 07:42

The term 'living as a woman' came from the doctors who wanted men to 'prove' they could 'live' as a woman by falsifying some paperwork and using female spaces without allegedly being clocked prior to them having their penis removed.

So they used females spaces and reported back to their doctors that they were 'living as a woman' because no woman had 'clocked' them in their spaces.

When in fact what happened is that women 'clocked' them, and either stayed silent, left, hid in the toilets or just avoided using the toilets instead of 'clocking' them, making a fuss and potentially getting their face smashed in.

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 07:50

ScarlettSunset · 28/12/2025 07:37

Living as a woman is such a meaningless term.
I live as a woman, because I was born female and have no choice.

I do 'present' as a stereotypical female, with long hair and make up. I wear makeup every day, even if I'm not leaving the house and won't see anyone else, because I like ithe way I look with it. That's not what means I am living as a woman though.

All of the other women in my immediate family don't wear make-up. They are still women and are living as women.

All of the other women in my family gave up work when they had children, and have never worked since (even after children grown up and left home). I had a child and continued to work, as I had no one else to support me. As a result I've still got a career (in a male dominated field) and am the family breadwinner. I am still a woman and living as a woman.

My hobbies and interests include some stereotypically female activities. They also include stereotypically male activities like watching and enjoying football. I am still a woman and living fully as a woman.

If I was to die in a remote place, and not be discovered for years and years, my remains would still be identified as that of a woman. So when I die, I'll die as a woman after having lived my life as a woman regardless of how I present, or anything I do.

I would argue that the makeup thing is a specifically female thing though, since the vast majority of men don't wear makeup. That's at least one small way that you are living as a woman in comparison to the way that men live.

ScarlettSunset · 28/12/2025 07:59

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 07:50

I would argue that the makeup thing is a specifically female thing though, since the vast majority of men don't wear makeup. That's at least one small way that you are living as a woman in comparison to the way that men live.

Show quote history

I was a huge fan of the rock band Poison back in my younger days.

Very much make up wearing men, and very much male despite that. Hordes of female fans like me who knew damn well they were all male.
Plenty of other bands like that too back then.

I miss those days when men could look like that and no one suggested they were presenting as women.

Chiaseedling · 28/12/2025 08:07

My adult DD identifies as non-binary. Doesn’t feel like man or a woman (but def leans more towards the man side). We don’t really discuss it now although I’ve tried in the past but get short shrift. There’s been no change of name, only pronouns. Their dress is fairly androgynous . It’s now been 5 years since they came out as n/b and certain people(some family and my friends) still don’t know.

As a woman I don’t really know how I feel ‘female’. I’m not particularly girly (prefer trousers/trainers combo, not really heavily in to make-up, shoes, beauty etc but like to look presentable). I def ‘feel’ like a woman (as the song goes) - maybe it’s an inate thing.

Personally I feel that there are some ‘genuine’ trans folk, but there’s a lot of social contagion, esp post-Covid when teens spent far too long online in their rooms and in their own heads.

If a man wants to identify as a woman then good luck to him, but I draw the like at a penis in a female space. That should never happen. I do know of a couple of trans men - one who frankly looks ridiculous as they’re a petite woman and so they look like a pre-pubescent boy!

Waitingfordoggo · 28/12/2025 08:08

SoftBalletShoes · 27/12/2025 19:17

Living as a woman to me means wearing feminine clothes, makeup, jewellery, and having hair longer than a short back and sides. Doesn’t have to be skirts, heels, and dresses, could be jeans and a nice top. I know this is a deeply unpopular view on here, but to pretend there is no difference in the way most men and women present themselves is just daft. And the fact that there are many women who never wear makeup and live in tracksuits does not make feminine dressing and presentation less real or less common.

It is very obvious what living as a woman means, and we can acknowledge that without meaning that all women SHOULD be feminine. After all, it’s not men buying all the skirts, heels, dresses, and products that keep the fashion and beauty industries afloat, is it???

But you’re describing femininity. Women don’t have to be feminine to be women. Men can be feminine and still aren’t women. According to your definition, I do not ‘live as a woman’. (My menopause symptoms beg to differ).

So your definition of ‘living as a woman’ means ‘performing stereotypes of femininity’. Why don’t they just call it that?

‘Living as a woman’ is only available to women.

5128gap · 28/12/2025 08:25

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 00:46

I worked in a department store as a student in 1996. A man dressed as a stereotypical woman came in to buy a bra. He had clearly had no hormonal treatment and was, very clearly, a large man dressed as a woman - skirt, heels, wig, makeup. He looked like he was in drag. Anyway, back then, the NHS would not give any medical gender-changing treatment to any man who had not spent two years living as a woman. I believe we all know what this means, even though some pretend they don't in order to make a point. It means presenting in a feminine way, which means skirts, dresses, heels etc.

This does NOT mean:

That women who don't present as stereotypically feminine aren't women.
That women who don't wear makeup and skirts/dresses/heels are living as men.
That men can be women just by changing to a stereotypical presentation.
That these stereotypes reduce all women to stereotypes. It is simply a fact that many women wear skirts, dresses, and/or heels while men don't.

The phrase "living as a woman" is used in a very specific context: That is, that men who want to transition need to change from a male presentation to one that the world recognises as specifically feminine. This is to help ensure that they do actually want to be more feminine than they are currently before doing something irrevocable like surgery and hormones. It means living as a woman IN COMPARISON TO how they normally live.

I believe everyone knows this but that some split hairs in order to make a point about female stereotypes. It's very tedious. No one thinks that women who don't present in a typically feminine fashion aren't women or that all women conform to the stereotypical feminine presentation.

The above is all just common sense.

Edited

This certainly was true in the 90s. Alongside advice given to men to use women's spaces eg toilets.
It'd outdated now. Neither the medical profession or many in the trans community believe it to be about presentation anymore.
Its really as simple as a man saying 'I am a woman'
Interestingly there is rejection of 'woman' being tied to appearance stereotypes within the trans community as within the GC community. Though for different reasons. Many trans people do not want their appearance to be a factor because they know they cannot 'pass' or don't want the faff of getting rid of body hair, dressing up etc (though others enjoy it) or have medical intervention.
They want simply 'I say therefore I am'. This is accepted. Hence the government website requiring only proof they have changed name and title.

SALaw · 28/12/2025 08:27

I saw someone on Twitter saying they sorted most of Christmas so maybe it’s that 🤣

Helleofabore · 28/12/2025 08:34

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 01:27

I'm going to quote the parts of my post that you conveniently ignored in order to make your point!

The phrase "living as a woman" is used in a very specific context: That is, that men who want to transition need to change from a male presentation to one that the world recognises as specifically feminine. This is to help ensure that they do actually want to be more feminine than they are currently before doing something irrevocable like surgery and hormones. It means living as a woman IN COMPARISON TO how they normally live.

This does NOT mean:
That women who don't present as stereotypically feminine aren't women.
That women who don't wear makeup and skirts/dresses/heels are living as men.
That men can be women just by changing to a stereotypical presentation.
That these stereotypes reduce all women to stereotypes. It is simply a fact that many women wear skirts, dresses, and/or heels while men don't.

Hope the underlining helps!!

Show quote history

‘Woman’ is an exclusive category. If your category boundaries do not include all the people that fit into that category and also allows people to be placed in the category where they don’t belong, then your boundary definitions are not fit for purpose.

A male person wearing stereotypical attire of a woman doesn’t make that person definable as a woman in anyway. It makes them a man who like to make choices that are considered stereotypically for ‘women’.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2025 08:40

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 02:29

OK, well if a man who wants to transition is required to live as a woman for a period, but he can't use a feminine presentation, because there is no such thing as living as a woman, how do you propose he satisfies the requirement? How does he test that he's psychologically comfortable to appear as a woman if skirts, dresses, heels, makeup are off the table? Does he just have to take hormones and have surgery and hope that it was the right move?

This hair-splitting over what it means to live as a woman in the context of a transition is very tedious. Everyone knows what it means - to look feminine instead of masculine - except people who are pretending not to in order to make a point.

Edited
Show quote history

The point is that no person can ‘transition’ to the opposite sex. Anyone, including clinicians, that tells someone they can or lets them think they can is not telling that person the truth about their situation.

“This hair-splitting over what it means to live as a woman in the context of a transition is very tedious. Everyone knows what it means - to look feminine instead of masculine - except people who are pretending not to in order to make a point.”

Except it is not about ‘looks’ in relation to female single sex provisions. A group of male people have successfully demanded that they have access to provisions that they should have not have access to. This is harmful to the female people who need those provisions to remain single sex and not mixed sex.

TheKeatingFive · 28/12/2025 08:44

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 07:50

I would argue that the makeup thing is a specifically female thing though, since the vast majority of men don't wear makeup. That's at least one small way that you are living as a woman in comparison to the way that men live.

Show quote history

Well that's just silly. Some men do wear makeup. Plenty of women don't wear makeup - does that mean they're living as men?

Original poster
funtimess · 28/12/2025 08:52

Chiaseedling · 28/12/2025 08:07

My adult DD identifies as non-binary. Doesn’t feel like man or a woman (but def leans more towards the man side). We don’t really discuss it now although I’ve tried in the past but get short shrift. There’s been no change of name, only pronouns. Their dress is fairly androgynous . It’s now been 5 years since they came out as n/b and certain people(some family and my friends) still don’t know.

As a woman I don’t really know how I feel ‘female’. I’m not particularly girly (prefer trousers/trainers combo, not really heavily in to make-up, shoes, beauty etc but like to look presentable). I def ‘feel’ like a woman (as the song goes) - maybe it’s an inate thing.

Personally I feel that there are some ‘genuine’ trans folk, but there’s a lot of social contagion, esp post-Covid when teens spent far too long online in their rooms and in their own heads.

If a man wants to identify as a woman then good luck to him, but I draw the like at a penis in a female space. That should never happen. I do know of a couple of trans men - one who frankly looks ridiculous as they’re a petite woman and so they look like a pre-pubescent boy!

Does she recognise that she’s a biological woman though? And that she doesn’t have to confirm to any stereotypes to be a woman?

This is why the language of ‘living as’ and ‘transitioning to’ are so dangerous.

young people feel they can’t be a woman if they don’t fit in the stereotype box.

I really despise this ideology

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 28/12/2025 08:52

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 07:16

True.

Maybe the NHS ought to change their wording.

Show quote history

They definitely should.

And they should also improve the standard of care given to ensure that no person who makes extreme body modifications thinks that their philosophical belief has superseded material reality. And that no one has the right to demand that others act as if they share that person’s philosophical belief.

HugglesAndSnuggles · 28/12/2025 08:56

Fact: No-one can change biology. You are either male or female. There are two sexes and I won’t have anyone scream at me that you can ‘identify’ as whatever you want. There are two sexes only.

If a man wants to put a dress on and pretend he’s a woman, he can’t expect me to enter into his delusion and affirm that he’s a woman.

Helleofabore · 28/12/2025 08:58

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 07:50

I would argue that the makeup thing is a specifically female thing though, since the vast majority of men don't wear makeup. That's at least one small way that you are living as a woman in comparison to the way that men live.

Show quote history

You cannot take a superficial aspect of someone’s choices and turn that into a category definition tool.

Is Jeffry Star a woman? Because he seems to fit that category given your explanation.

Superhansrantowindsor · 28/12/2025 08:59

The only things that make me a woman are the fact I’ve birthed children and I am now struggling with symptoms of menopause. Other than that my life is very similar to DH in terms of clothes, hobbies, interests , career etc. So its biology and if I could identify out of meno I would.

EasternStandard · 28/12/2025 09:00

SoftBalletShoes · 28/12/2025 07:00

I already told you. You're being deliberately obtuse to make a point.

"Even with short hair, it's obvious she's a woman by her body type, facial structure, voice, etc. She doesn't need long hair to signify that she's a woman, since she clearly is one. Even wolves know the difference. If there's a man and a woman, the wolf will always attack the woman, because they KNOW. (Where I live, there are wolves.)"

I've also said about six times now that the man in a dress is not living as a real woman because that's not possible. But he is getting closer by presenting as female. Which does not mean close.

The first time I ever read that "live-as-a-woman" requirement, I knew exactly what it meant, as does everyone.

Show quote history

Can you describe what ‘living as a man’ would be?

Original poster
funtimess · 28/12/2025 09:02

Evidence of living in your gender for the last 2 years
You’ll need copies of evidence to show that you’ve been living in your affirmed gender for the last 2 years.

living in your affirmed gender?

this is a government requirement!

What the heck does that mean?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 28/12/2025 09:08

Chiaseedling · 28/12/2025 08:07

My adult DD identifies as non-binary. Doesn’t feel like man or a woman (but def leans more towards the man side). We don’t really discuss it now although I’ve tried in the past but get short shrift. There’s been no change of name, only pronouns. Their dress is fairly androgynous . It’s now been 5 years since they came out as n/b and certain people(some family and my friends) still don’t know.

As a woman I don’t really know how I feel ‘female’. I’m not particularly girly (prefer trousers/trainers combo, not really heavily in to make-up, shoes, beauty etc but like to look presentable). I def ‘feel’ like a woman (as the song goes) - maybe it’s an inate thing.

Personally I feel that there are some ‘genuine’ trans folk, but there’s a lot of social contagion, esp post-Covid when teens spent far too long online in their rooms and in their own heads.

If a man wants to identify as a woman then good luck to him, but I draw the like at a penis in a female space. That should never happen. I do know of a couple of trans men - one who frankly looks ridiculous as they’re a petite woman and so they look like a pre-pubescent boy!

Why does a male person without a penis get special consideration from you though?

What is the exact difference because a male person who has had their penis removed through injury or disease and one who has elected to have this procedure for personal identity purposes?

Is it that they cannot commit sex offences that means they might get access to a female single sex space? Because they still can commit sex offences without a penis.

Is it that they won’t abuse female people or commit acts of abuse that means they should be allowed access to a female single sex provision? Because they still have have capacity without a penis.

Is it that somehow the rest of their body changes completely to remove all male body cues and no female person will ever correctly identify that person as a male person?

I am interested why you have drawn the line at having a penis or not.

itsthetea · 28/12/2025 09:17

Make up isn’t specifically female across all cultures and times - in the 1980s males often wore make up and my first boyfriend wore make up and I didn’t

and so it’s not innate - it’s just current society norm

i tend to wear my hair longer than DH. Partly because he is going bald. He used to have it longer. And partly because there is only so much energy to give to going against social norms. The questions and comments and stares and the general distrust that not fitting in generates / and that’s human nature to trust more easily that which is like us and fits our ideas of OK

Helleofabore · 28/12/2025 09:20

OP you are not wrong to question what the phrase ‘living as a woman’ means. Particularly as it has legal ramifications - such as gaining a GRC.

No male person can ever live or experience life as a 'woman' or a 'girl'.

They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic when you unpick it!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.
But based on their own reaction developed over years of them reacting to the way they interact with society and themselves and how others interact with them while having a male body and a mind that processes stimuli in that male body.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

They are still processing stimuli and making decisions based on the way they interact with society and themselves and how others interact with them while having a male body.

How can it be any other way?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not. Or who doesn't want to be the thing they objectively are.

How can the material reality be any different?

This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid. But apparently, we should just let these male people use female language and into any female single sex provision if they meet specific conditions.

YourBreezyBiscuit · 28/12/2025 09:29

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Waitingfordoggo · 28/12/2025 09:31

funtimess · 28/12/2025 09:02

Evidence of living in your gender for the last 2 years
You’ll need copies of evidence to show that you’ve been living in your affirmed gender for the last 2 years.

living in your affirmed gender?

this is a government requirement!

What the heck does that mean?

Yes- it’s absolutely baffling that this is the official guidance.

Imagine if the government said that anyone can get a Blue Badge if they can prove they are ‘living as’ a person with a disability. ie, they do not actually have a disability in any medical scientific sense, but they can perform some stereotypes of what disability ‘looks like’ (by using a wheelchair or a white stick for example).

Chersfrozenface · 28/12/2025 09:34

In the Gender Recognition Act 2004 the phrase "living in the other gender" is used.

The Explanatory Notes, under "Section 6 Evidence", detail the evidence of "gender dysphoria" that is required, and then

"17.Under subsection (4), an application must also include a statutory declaration by the applicant, stating that the applicant meets the conditions as to having lived in the acquired gender for at least two years and intending to continue to do so."

So basically the evidence required by law of "living as a woman" is "because I say so".

That's it.

ETA cross posted but my post does contain wording from the Act itself.

Original poster
funtimess · 28/12/2025 09:37

Helleofabore · 28/12/2025 09:20

OP you are not wrong to question what the phrase ‘living as a woman’ means. Particularly as it has legal ramifications - such as gaining a GRC.

No male person can ever live or experience life as a 'woman' or a 'girl'.

They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic when you unpick it!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.
But based on their own reaction developed over years of them reacting to the way they interact with society and themselves and how others interact with them while having a male body and a mind that processes stimuli in that male body.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

They are still processing stimuli and making decisions based on the way they interact with society and themselves and how others interact with them while having a male body.

How can it be any other way?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not. Or who doesn't want to be the thing they objectively are.

How can the material reality be any different?

This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid. But apparently, we should just let these male people use female language and into any female single sex provision if they meet specific conditions.

Very wise words.

It supports my experience of living in an extremely busy city, as I wrote earlier. I pass thousands of people as I go about my day, everyday. Probably 10's of thousands of people. I will nearly always see at least one or two men wearing a dress/skirt (normally short skirt), heels, wig and heavy make-up.

The stark reality is I have started to look around after I pass these men and try to count how many women are wearing short skirts and heels and heavy makeup in the area, it is always none. It is noticing this which has made me feel that men wearing shorts skirts and heels in these situations are emulating their own idea of womanhood. I find it over sexualised and frankly quite insulting to my sex class.

In most situations women are just getting on with their day and not wearing clothes to please men, especially walking around a city in the daytime. Men see women through their own lens even when they want to be seen as a woman, it's a man's view of being a woman.

OP posts: