to think no one can define living as a woman

[funtimess]

if you are a biological man.

Or indeed define living as a man if they are a biological woman.

What is the definition, how do you define a person ‘living" as the opposite sex?

AIBU to think that nobody is going to be able to define this unless they resort to regressive stereotypes.

YABU - I can define this for you without using regressive stereotypes.
YANBU - You are right, you can’t define this without using regressive stereotypes.

90% of trans identifying men never want or have surgery because they like to keep their bits.

Well, I also live in a huge cosmopolitan city, and I see many women wearing skirts and dresses. Especially as it gets very hot where I live.

Anyway, someone is buying all the skirts and dresses and heels in the shops, and it's not men.

The trans men you see sticking out like a sore thumb are probably the ones on the NHS pathway that says you have to live as a woman for two years before starting any treatment. So they won't have had any hormonal treatment.

ETA: I don't know why it's so extremely difficult for some women to admit that the vast majority of females present in a feminine way in some form, even if it's not full-on dress/heels/makeup every day. I wear jeans and flats most days, but I also wear subtle makeup, earrings, and have long hair, for example. The fact that there are also many women who have short hair, wear no make up or jewellery, no perfume, and unisex clothing does not negate the fact that most women are a little more feminine than that.

But they still have to follow that NHS live-as-a-woman requirement even if they just want hormones.

Good grief

How does a man wearing a dress mean he’s living as a woman but a woman having short back and sides isn’t living as a man?

please don’t say because the man’s on a pathway to transition it’s meaningless.

im am stunned you can’t see the double standard? It can’t be meaningful if it doesn’t both ways can it?

plus you are missing the point that 90% of men never have or want surgery

They just do what they can, which is to present in a traditionally feminine way. I don't think anyone thinks that that's the same as living as a real woman.

You are totally missing the point though, they aren’t living as a woman just because they wear a particular type of clothing.

as I just said I see men wearing skirts where there are thousands of women none in f which are wearing skirts and heels.

I was also in a pub the other day in the centre of the city and literally the only person in the pub with a short skirt, heels and stereotypical female clothing was the trans identifying man. he wasn’t in any way living as a woman, he was dressed as a man’s interpretation of a stereotypical woman.

I've said numerous times that he's not living as a real woman, since that's not possible. But presenting as feminine is closer to living as a woman than if he didn't present as feminine. I said clos-ER, which doesn't mean close.

He has to satisfy the NHS requirement in order to get hormone treatment, if not surgery. So how would YOU suggest he do that, without utilising established dress norms?

Your illogical comparison about the woman with the short hair is a pointless comparison. Even with short hair, it's obvious she's a woman by her body type, facial structure, voice, etc. She doesn't need long hair to signify that she's a woman, since she clearly is one. Even wolves know the difference. If there's a man and a woman, the wolf will always attack the woman, because they KNOW. (Where I live, there are wolves.) But the would-be transitioner needs to mark himself out as female somehow. I know the stereotypes implicit in this when it comes to modes of dress are a bit maddening if you dwell on them, but how else is he supposed to do it?

I'm not missing the point, if you read my posts. I've said numerous times that presenting as stereotypically female doesn't mean that he's living as a real woman, because that's not possible. It means that he's doing what he can to present as female. Of course, many women wear unisex clothing. But adopting stereotypically feminine modes of dress is what's available to him to satisfy that NHS requirement. What else could he do? He can hardly conjure up periods.

The whole thread is about defining living as a woman.

The answer can’t be he’s doing what he can ffs

And it’s obvious the bloke in a dress is a man.

Yes.

Clothes and hair are not that relevant.🤷‍♀️

It’s simple really - if you’re born a female child, with a vagina, you will become a woman in adulthood.

If you are born a male child, with a penis, you will become a man in adulthood.

People can identify as what they like - it changes nothing, and it’s delusional. 🙄

If we cannot define how to live as a man or woman, then gender dysphoria cannot be real.

So why is the bloke in the dress living as a woman and the woman with short back and sides not living as a man.

make it make sense

OK, so forgetting about the NHS requirement, I did write a post about what it means to me to live as a woman. I said that there are some commonalities to women's lives that make it quite easy to define. Stuff like periods, sexual harassment, etc. This is not to say that this is the sum total of every woman's life, of course not. Individual women live billions of lives which are all different from each other. But those are two things that I would say almost all the women on the planet have experienced at some point in their lives, plus there were other things in my post.

And it’s obvious the bloke in a dress is a man.

So what. How exactly is that affecting you?

@funtimess - you sound like the total opposite of your username - and no - I would not like to chat with you at a party.

You need to loosen up a little and try to live and let live. And to coin one of your fav phrases on this thread 'FFS' 🙄

I already told you. You're being deliberately obtuse to make a point.

"Even with short hair, it's obvious she's a woman by her body type, facial structure, voice, etc. She doesn't need long hair to signify that she's a woman, since she clearly is one. Even wolves know the difference. If there's a man and a woman, the wolf will always attack the woman, because they KNOW. (Where I live, there are wolves.)"

I've also said about six times now that the man in a dress is not living as a real woman because that's not possible. But he is getting closer by presenting as female. Which does not mean close.

The first time I ever read that "live-as-a-woman" requirement, I knew exactly what it meant, as does everyone.

dressing in a feminine way is a very different concept to ‘living as a woman'

You are confusing the two.

Anyome can dress in a feminine way.

Only biological women can live as women.

No, he’s not getting close to living as a woman, he will never be able to even live any little bit of his life as a woman because he’s not one.

He can dress in a stereotypical feminine way but he’s not any closer to living as a biological woman.

Well, "live as a woman" is the NHS language, not mine. 🤷‍♀️ Of course a man who dresses in a traditionally feminine manner is not living lie a real woman in any way except tussling with tights/heels/using maeup remover.

Maybe they should change it to "present as traditionally feminine for two years" in order to get any hormone treatment.

i said "closer, which doesn't mean close."

I suppose it might get him a little closer to the female experience by attracting abuse yelled at him by packs of men.

so we can combat this by a campaign stating makeup and dresses are for everyone, not just women. So if you take away that, how is this man living “as a woman”? If we make all clothes and make up gender neutral, then by what criteria could a man claim to line as a woman and be allowed to access female spaces?

They mean “pretending” to be a woman because they can’t live as a woman as they aren’t one.

I don't know. I can't actually think of any way that a man could satisfy that NHS requirement than by adopting a traditionally feminine mode of presentation. If we woke up tomorrow in a world where traditional dress markers don't exist and never did, I have no idea how a man would satisfy that requirement. I guess that's why trans man dress in stereotypically female outfits and decor, since there's nothing else they can do, really.

True.

Maybe the NHS ought to change their wording.