to think no one can define living as a woman

[funtimess]

if you are a biological man.

Or indeed define living as a man if they are a biological woman.

What is the definition, how do you define a person ‘living" as the opposite sex?

AIBU to think that nobody is going to be able to define this unless they resort to regressive stereotypes.

YABU - I can define this for you without using regressive stereotypes.
YANBU - You are right, you can’t define this without using regressive stereotypes.

Are the women who wear tracksuits and no make up living as men ?

For TIM, I believe it means the life they live after they 'come out' as someone who has always been a woman, but previously went along with the 'mistake' made by the doctor who took a look at their penis (rather than their brain/soul) at birth and 'wrongly' 'assigned' them as a male. So, pretty much, anything goes.

There is no such thing as "if you think/feel/experience/do x, then you are woman"

What does it mean to be a woman? having the right chromosomes? periods? children? breasts? long hair? wears make up?

I carried, birthed, and breastfed a child so I can confidently say I am a woman. I can confidently say that my best friend is also a woman, but she has not carried, birthed or breastfed a child - she has the "equipment" but not the desire.

This is a discussion filled with yes....but's and what about-ery. There will never be a definitive answer that meets everyone's agreement.

False equivalence. The fact that women who don’t present as stereotypically feminine are still women does not mean that there isn’t a recognised feminine mode of presentation. The two things have nothing to do with each other. Some women wearing tracksuits, no makeup and a shirt back and sides do not change the fact that skirts and dresses are worn by women and not men.

But surely having the equipment is the whole point whether a woman chooses to use it or not?

A man isn't born with the equipment therefore isn't a woman, no matter how many dresses they have in their wardrobe.

As long as men are pretending to be women and desperate to hurt women and girls, it will never stop being talked about.

Yes, of course he’s still a man. But I’d have thought it blindingly obvious that wearing skirts and dresses and heels and makeup etc is living more like a woman than if he’d stayed presenting as a man.

Don't be ridiculous, you're not the thread police! Who are you to say what's been "done to death" ??

OP, I agree with you. Eddie Izzard said he "knew he was a woman because he felt like one" and I thought what a nonsense thing to say, how would you know what that feels like when you are a biological man?

It really doesn't mean that to TIM.
A lot certainly do choose to adopt stereotypically female presentation, but that's just the way some choose to express 'being a woman' and send the message to the world to treat them as such.
Living as a woman is really just when a man tells the world he knows he's a woman really, and that they must now treat him as though he is. Some TIM don't even shave their beards. Because it's all about the feeling and the knowing. Apparantly.

Not at all, a man wearing make up is not a man that is more like a woman.
He’s a man with makeup.

is a woman with no make up living more like as a man? I would have thought it blindingly obvious she’s not.

If you are a man who wears dresses and heels and makeup etc then you are living more like a stereotypical woman than if you dress and present like a man. Isn’t that really obvious?

Some women choosing not to present as stereotypically feminine doesn’t change that or have anything to do with it.

No two women will have the same experiences. For many of us we have been negatively impacted by being a woman but for many this hasn’t been a noticeable impact for them. Some of us hate it. Some of us love it. Some of us can have children, some can’t but want to, some don’t want to be mothers. Some love to conform to gender stereotypes and others wear trousers no makeup and don’t shave their armpits- most will fall somewhere in the middle of that.

literally the only thing all women have in common is our chromosomal biology and the type of gametes our bodies are programmed to produce. With the few exceptions of those with differences in sexual development but even then with unusual chromosomes they will be male or female on a genetic level.

there is no definition of woman based on what people like/dislike/do/wear, uterus/no uterus etc mother/not mother, skilled work/care work. No definition will ever include all women unless you use adult human female as a definition.

im always so offended when it’s assumed I have a gender. I do not. Or if I’m told I’m cis because I am not. If we go by these offensive stereotypes I don’t fit because I’m a single parent so all the money and practical stuff falls to me as does the housework and childcare. I don’t conform to beauty standards or wear dresses but no person has ever got confused about my sex when harassing me or discriminating against me. I’d love to have the advantages men get in life and the praise for such basic parenting. I hated being pregnant so could easily swap with a dad and still be an amazing involved parent- past breastfeeding age I don’t parent with my breasts or genitals do I I could de everything I do as a man but society would stop kicking me while I’m down for being a single parent!

You’ve successfully managed to reduce womanhood to a series of stereotypes rather than a biological reality. Women spent decades fighting those stereotypes and now they’re on the rise again and this time, we’re hearing that men who perform those stereotypes are better women than those of use who choose not to. It’s so offensive

So at what point does someone not living as a woman - who doesn’t wear make up dresses or heels - who doesn’t like shopping and is good at maths - stop being a woman ?

because there must be a tipping point

ediy this assumes woman didn’t mean female adult human

And if you are a woman who wears jeans and t shirt with short hair you are presenting as a man?

you can’t only have it one way

Even If he’s presenting as a female stereotype he’s still not living as a woman is he?

@SoftBalletShoesbut a stereotypical woman is more than a femininely dressed one. She also loves to care for her family, if she works she prefers low paid care type roles, she steps in to care for sick and elderly relatives and is always the one to leave work to collect sick children. So why bother educating women to higher levels when she’s not destined for a career? She’s better at cleaning so she does the housework. She doesn’t understand money as well as a man so should not have control and therefore access to the family money. The stereotype is she’s a worse driver and can’t reverse park so should we even let women drive?
stereotypes are used to discriminate against people. Stereotypes are harmful. The feminine stereotypes are even the reason so many women conform to the appearance and grooming ones. You can’t pick and choose which stereotypes are acceptable about a group of people this way??

🤭

Living as a woman to me means wearing feminine clothes, makeup, jewellery, and having hair longer than a short back and sides.

I am wearing, as usual, jeans and a jumper. I don't wear makeup or jewellery. My hair is much shorter than my son's. And I actually have an entirely gender-neutral name (not because I changed it to Ash or anything unusual; it just is), and a maths-based doctorate.

I'm possibly a stereotype of a different sort, but I'm still very much 'living as a woman'.

I think I'd define living as a woman as experiencing sexism in my daily life. This could be around assumptions regarding my ability to parallel park, how much I really enjoy cooking or whether I'm capable of doing what are usually considered man-like tasks, such as stripping down and rebuilding a carburettor.

To be honest, I'm a bit sick of this whole endless conversation where a bunch of psychotically obsessed people keep trying to ram down everyone's throat what it means to be a 'real' woman. It's not helping women like me (nearly 60, born with all the female bits) who just want to get on with our lives without constantly having to think about gender.

If folks are that interested in keeping women safe, maybe set up a self defence group, volunteer at a DV or crisis centre, campaign to sort out the crippling debt problem loads of women are struggling under. Because this repetitive carping is doing nothing to help the actual women folks are claiming they want to defend. Lazy.

In Afghanistan, living as a woman involves

• no work
• no secondary education
• being fully covered at all times outside the home
• never being heard to speak
• being denied medical care

weirdly we do not see the AGPs dressing up as that version of womanhood

I’d have thought it blindingly obvious that wearing skirts and dresses and heels and makeup etc is living more like a woman than if he’d stayed presenting as a man

The problem is that this is a very narrow as well as culturally, geographically and historically changeable presentation isn’t it?

Then wearing feminine clothes cant make a man a woman. If womanhood is defined by clothes and makeup then only those people who do are living as a woman.
This is an extremely offensive take on womanhood which excludes 90% of women to include 0.1% of men under the word woman, when in reality no man regardless of how he dresses, what surgeries, cross sex hormones he takes or even whatever oh so special feelings he claims to have can ever be a woman. He's a man hes male hes hot XY chromosomes in every cell of his being and can never live as a woman

No its a man in women's clothes.
90% of women dont wear dresses and/or make-up all day every day.
Womens clothes are cut for women's body shapes not mens so men look ridiculous in women's clothes as they dont fit any that do aren't designed for women they're designed for men so they're mens clothes.
Oh and outdated stereotypes belong in the bin and should not be used to claim a man is a woman or is in anyway living as a woman

I guess the real question is

"Is Gender a Western issue based around AGP desires to dress
as their mothers ? "

How do South Asian AGPs dress ?
What about Masai AGPs ?
Or Mongolian AGPs ?

If gender dysphoria is truly a human trait
rather than a social contagion
it would appear at even rates across all societies

so, where is the evidence collected in non Western, non rich societies ?