To be furious at local church carol service

[YogaGrinch]

With our new "fundamentalist " vicar who included genesis 3 16

And other misogynistic patriarchal quotes and suggestions throughout the service -

Listening to the King's college Cambridge service tonight was a completely different service although there too there were some dated patriarchal views shared?

And basically using opportunity of a full church to preach hellfire and brimstone snd call us all hypocrites and sinners rather than preaching love kindness beauty

Never heard anything like it

Was absolutely 💔

I'm an atheist and not a fan of any faith but I assume that jesus was a nice guy who probably just told people to be kind to each other. It would have been great if he'd actually written himself a book about his teachings.

Have you thought about complaining to the. I at. He needs to know if he is upsetting people.

No, God already knew at the start of creation how things would go down. It's not like it caught Him by surprise. I know, you're thinking but why put us all through that? I don't have the answer other than to say God gave us free will and it was going to mean humanity might fall and become sinful, because Adam and Eve had a choice when tempted. Humanity fell, and God has a plan that is currently working itself out.

this is what puzzles me about religion if its ment to be the words of god etc then why are humans editing and changing the texts otherwise you may as well use harry potter as your religion etc

I’ve been to 3 Nine Lessons and Carols services in the last 2 week and I’ve listened to the one on the radio today. None of them included that verse, thankfully, and I don’t remember ever hearing it.

The services have been a school service in a cathedral, a very formal Carol service in a large traditional CofE church (my normal church) and a smaller rural church in Wales. None of them had that verse.

Wow, from the same passage is a part about the woman being “saved through childbearing”. I think I finally understand it. It is a prophetic reference to Jesus being born by woman — The saviour of the world! This reversing the curse and consequences of sin in the garden of Eden.

It’s not a reference to woman producing offspring in general.

As an atheist who was raised Pentecostal/Baptist...well, that's the Bible, isn't it?

It always confuses me to see Christians who think they can just pick or choose parts of the Bible, and just decide that God won't be sending them to hell for being gay anymore, or doesn't think women are designed to be subservient companions to men anymore, just because it suits them, as though they can dictate God's law.

If God were real then I doubt he would've changed his mind on any of that; the coming of Jesus did away with the need to make sacrifices at the temple in order to seek forgiveness for one's sins, but it didn't mean those things were no longer sins.

Either believe the whole lot or you may as well give it up, because if you don't believe the whole lot, then by the rules of your religion you're probably going to hell 🤷

I’m not a biblical scholar but I don’t think non- extreme Christians do believe in the sense you suggest.
They don’t believe God somehow dictated the lot from Heaven.
I Understand the scriptures have originated in different phases of history and been edited by different individuals over the centuries. Eg I believe at one time there were references to some of Christs disciples being women but at some point in history the women’s names were changed to men names. I could be wrong. But this shows things are not as simple as this post suggests,

Huh. So someone posts that the bible is merely an "instrument of patriarchy" and that "the whole story was invented to enable men to assume and retain power"

And OPs response to that is "Yes this ... but it never felt more stark more shocking". Yet you're telling us that you're a Christian?

Churches make a lovely setting for all sorts of things, but so much evil goes on in those chilly stone walls.

The verse about women being “saved through childbearing” comes from 1 Timothy, right at the very other end of the Bible from Genesis which is the passage quoted by the OP. And the 1 Timothy passage isn’t about the same thing - it’s not about God’s general plan for the salvation of the world it’s about the writer’s view of how Christian women in the early church should behave.

Has he forgotten Jesus came after that? Sure the Old Testament was guessing what was to come. I believe Jesus, was the answer to all the surmising in the Old Testament..

Yes they should preach love and kindness, but fire and brimstone is fine, one of the most (I reckon the most) important parts of a vicars job is trying to bring people to Christ

Yeah, that isn’t how it works.

What an odd thing to say. Ours doesn’t start until 4pm and the other one in our town starts at 6pm.

But just what is the book we call the Bible? Various theological councils in the Middle Ages decide which books should be included in addition to which some books rediscovered since were not included and the texts have undergone a number of translations. I find it difficult to accept that the selection of the books commonly included were chosen by God when one reads of the corruption in the church at the time and the constant struggle for power.
Is it basically a lottery as to which parts of the Bible were accepted by a bunch of medieval RC theologians who were convinced the sun went round the earth?

The bible says a lot of things that we don't agree with today - approval of slavery, for example. It causes Christians to have to really think about the basic precepts of Christianity and how we live today. So, no, I dont think anyone should preach from the bible in a way tgar just accepts all of it as the unchallenged word of God, especially as it it often self contradictory. The priest/vicar should be open to a discussion about what he was preaching.

That's not traditional in any of the churches I've been in! Are you just being contrary for the sheer hell of it?

He taught people to repent of their sins and warned them about Hell, as well as healing and delivering the demon possessed. He taught total obedience to God over all things and that we had to die to ourselves. He annoyed a lot of people and told people things they didn't want to hear. He wasn't that nice, good yes. Nice, no.

No not guessing. The prophetic books contain all sorts of prophesies that later came true, amongst them, the coming of Jesus - see Isaiah chapter 53, describes Christ and what happened to Him. Daniel as well contains many prophecies that have come to pass. And some that have yet to happen.

Allegedly

This whole thread is peak mumsnet. 😂

Fucking crying, great work all.

Happy Christmas all!

I don't find the verse OP refers to offensive in the slightest. Women do experience pain in childbearing, and we do find ourselves under the rule of men. It's a pretty accurate description of the way the world is for women. The point isn't that this is what we deserve, but it's what happens when we take ourselves out of God's perfect will (of living in harmony with him, with nature and with and each other) and try to make our own paradise instead.
The reading is included at the beginning of the carol service, as PP have said, to set the scene for the coming saviour, who broke the curse of sin (the pain, the enmity, the ceaseless toil) to make a way for people to live in harmony with God and each other again.
Sometimes I think people are wilfully blind. it's really not that hard to understand.

Well it’s pretty clear that this thread was started to try an and make a point about Christianity.

Christianity means lots of things to different people. Different people put different weight on different parts of the Bible and the Bible as a whole. Some focus more on extra biblical thought and traditions.

it’s very clear that many on this thread have very little understanding of Christianity and its development.

Of course there’s things that sound misogynistic to our ears some 5-6,000 years after some parts were written. Luckily most Christians have got enough intelligencer to realise the limitations of the Bible. The difficulty comes with any religion that refuses to adapt it teachings, some fundamentalist Christian’s are like this, but luckily not the whole religion