To be furious at local church carol service

[YogaGrinch]

With our new "fundamentalist " vicar who included genesis 3 16

And other misogynistic patriarchal quotes and suggestions throughout the service -

Listening to the King's college Cambridge service tonight was a completely different service although there too there were some dated patriarchal views shared?

And basically using opportunity of a full church to preach hellfire and brimstone snd call us all hypocrites and sinners rather than preaching love kindness beauty

Never heard anything like it

Was absolutely 💔

No, we don’t follow all the laws in the OT. But neither do we (in mainstream denominations) tell women to shut up in church as St Paul does in 1 Corinthians; ban divorce except in case of adultery as Jesus teaches in the Gospels, or put out our eye if it causes us to sin (ditto). The Bible is a complex set of texts of different genres not a simple instruction manual, and we read it as an inspired set of writings in which different people over centuries wrestled with understanding God’s love for and relationship with humanity. It’s not the case that Christians follow the NT to the letter and ignore the OT; all have to be read prayerfully and with discernment.

"Tradition by quoting verses of Bible that are misogynistic and evil and blame women? You like that"tradition"?"

You're a church-going Christian publicly calling bible verses evil and calling for the bible to be rewritten? I just don't believe you, and I think you're being deliberately offensive.

And no, modern churches don't need to adapt or adjust bible verses to fit societal norms. Any church that is telling its congregation to bend God's law to fit their lives as opposed to the other way around, is failing them. And this is why people have turned their back on the church, and don't respect them anymore.

Our young vicar was very popular. Very modern and well liked by all ages. Sadly he's been removed because it turned out he was a paedophile. Glad to be an atheist tbh

"Perhaps because Christian means follower of Christ ... hence New Testament ... not Old Testament?"

"...not Old Testament?" ?? What sort of church are you going to that doesn't teach the Old Testament?

Jesus himself said that he had not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to fulfil them. He emphasised their endurance.

Doesn't surprise me at all that they're reading out misogynistic crap like this. Look at how the Church is welcoming Tommy Robinson and his ilk with open arms.

I’m sorry, this has made my Christmas, I thought the panto was funny. Rewrite the Bible??? You know that thing Christians see as the Eternal word of God.. lol!!! Maybe Christianity isn’t right for you? I’m not blaming you, the Church of England has increasingly been trying to hide what’s in the Bible for the past few decades!!

I’ve experienced similar as well as homophobic hate speech so I stopped going. I’m sad because I do believe there’s a god / reason behind life that’s more spiritual but the out-dated misogyny and general lack of respect/obsession with sex has shown me that the church institution isn’t for me. I liked the sense of community but, with a lesbian daughter, it became clear it wasn’t my community anymore.

Imagine going to church and hearing bits of the bible being read out - nobody can reasonably have expected that. They should come up with an updated version of Christianity that happens to align exactly with what I think anyway.

Really appreciate the discussions here

I'd love to know what he actually said! For example the idea that we're all sinners ('sin' is just Christian speak for wrong doing) is Christianity 101 and pretty central to the Christmas story, which is all about God becoming one of us in order to reconcile us to himself...which would be pretty pointless if we didn't need a bit of reconciling! One of the famous carols you must have belted out every year even has a line about "God and sinners reconciled". In fact the words of many traditional carols would probably give some of their singers conniptions if they actually listened to them!

I guess I'm just surprised that you're a regular church goer ('our vicar') and haven't heard that we're all sinners! I'm not an Anglican but I'm pretty sure the C of E liturgy every Sunday includes pretty blunt prayers of confession?

Um really???? Any examples?

I haven't read the full thread but Genesis gets straight into how man rebelled against God and this led to permanent separation from God.

Genesis 3
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspringa] and hers;
he will crushb] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So after The Fall, things seemed miserable and hopeless for mankind, but God is already thinking about to rectify the situation through Jesus dying for mankind (he will crush your head and you will strike his heel). Mankind was utterly doomed by the events in the Garden of Eden except for the plan to offer Jesus as a sacrifice to make things right. This is literally the Gospel. That's why everyone is so happy that Jesus was born, that's why he is the 'light of the world' and all of the hymns sign about how we were sinners and he saved us. The Old Testment lies out the full breadth of man' recurring rebellion from God and Jesus is the final and ultimate solution to this problem. Believe it or not but that's the theology that Christianity is based on. Yes, of course Jesus taught us how to be kind and selfless etc, and showed us how to extend grace and forgive but really the joy Christians feel at Christmas is because Jesus literally saved the world, spiritually. Ok the sermon isn't very fuzzy and doesn't have the feels of the 'no room at the inn' story but it's not totally irrelevant either.

That‘s a really odd passage to bring up especially at Christmas. Maybe he was in a grump.

What about finding a more supportive church?

Yes!

FUCK well there you go

🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮

I think YABU to be surprised. All organised religion is founded on pretty hateful ideologies. Most surrounding women being subservient and “dirty” at times.

I don’t know, there seem to be a lot more of you around these days, not in such short supply as far I can tell.

YANBU!

I attended the St Paul’s Cathedral service last night at which everyone from any faith or no faith was welcomed. Love, compassion and tolerance were high on the menu and the choir can hold a tune. Would definitely recommend.

Go to a different church.

It’s Trump and his sidekicks. Christian fundamentalists are gaining confidence because of them. Vom.

I think many of the younger generation are being more heavily influenced by the American and African ways of the church.

That’s not the passage I’d have chosen for Christmas Eve, but I suppose I can’t be angry at anyone for quoting any part of the Bible.