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Just been told to remove my pronouns from my Teams profile

817 replies

Horrace · 18/12/2025 10:11

I'm weak 🤣
My manager just phoned me to say there has been some serious complaints made about me that he must urgently address.
I panicked.
In the Pronouns section of my Teams profile, I have

'Take a Wild Guess'

Its been there for a few years. Its finally been noticed and I've been told to take it down because it's made someone or more than one possibly, FEARFUL of me.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
EasternStandard · 19/12/2025 18:44

JellySaurus · 19/12/2025 18:30

So men are allowed to turn away an unconventional man, but women are not?

Good question

RessicaJabbit · 19/12/2025 18:46

Cybiil · 19/12/2025 18:00

Yes I think she should. I think of her as a woman.

Well in that case all men should be allowed in all female spaces...

5128gap · 19/12/2025 18:52

Jtfrtj · 19/12/2025 18:29

Yes you’ve definitely given it back to me haven’t you. You’re so edgy and tell it as it is, just like the OP. Well done, you.

I don't really understand.
You made an ageist comment, which was a bit daft of you when you were trying to criticise someone else for not supporting inclusivity.
I'm neither 'edgy' nor particularly prone to 'telling it like it is'. I am however a strong opponent of discrimination, hence pointing out your ageism.

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:07

Cybiil · 19/12/2025 12:43

Because it was nothing in the way they looked or came across which made me think otherwise and they had a female name. Okay now? Obviously if a man with a beard calls himself Monica, I am still able to tell he is male.

I find it very hard to believe you didn't know they were male. Are you a male or female? I only ask because practically no transwoman actually passes as a woman. Basically zero. They never pass. It's the voice (none can actually have a feminine voice, even with vocal feminisation surgery). The gait. The height. The lack of hips. The adams apple. The male jawbone. The limb length, hand size and shoe/feet size. And it's a hardwired survival instinct for a woman to spot a male. It's hardwired in us. University studies show that women can spot a male even if dressed as a transwoman easily. However men don't have this instinct to spot it. I have yet to meet one single transwoman that even remotely passes as a woman in real life sans internet filters. It just does not happen.

Jtfrtj · 19/12/2025 19:15

5128gap · 19/12/2025 18:52

I don't really understand.
You made an ageist comment, which was a bit daft of you when you were trying to criticise someone else for not supporting inclusivity.
I'm neither 'edgy' nor particularly prone to 'telling it like it is'. I am however a strong opponent of discrimination, hence pointing out your ageism.

No, you clearly do not understand, at all.

I was not criticising the OP for not supporting inclusivity. If you read my original post, properly, you will see I referred to the pronoun propaganda as nonsense. Because it is. Utterly. I have no time for it. However when you clock into the office each morning you need to leave your personal feelings to one side, it’s part of being a professional. The work place is not a platform for you to make political statements, that’s not what you’re paid for. That, was the point of my post. I fail to see why that went over your head.

It’s also not ageist to suggest my 50 plus year old ex boss was appearing to show his age with his behaviour, when 20, 30 plus years ago they’d have gotten away with saying much worse as that was the norm at the time in his youth. You need to adapt and move with the times, some do move, while others aren’t willing. People, young, middle aged and old all show their age in many ways at times, call it ageism if you want to. No skin off my nose.

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:20

Diverze · 19/12/2025 14:33

My trans daughter often wears trousers - mostly, actually. She doesn't wear makeup ever. She does have long hair. Never wears heels. This is exactly true to herself as this is the kind of style she would have worn had she been born female. I myself very rarely bother with makeup and never heels, for example.

Of course she can't win because some people say she "isn't even making an effort". You will be pleased to hear that she understands that she is likely to be read and addressed as male by strangers when in this type of outfit.

It's not really the dress. It's the gait. The height. The lack of hips. The adams apple. The male jawbone. The limb length, hand size and shoe/feet size. Men seem to have a thicker facial skin too than women. A transwoman doesn't pass even in a full face of make up. In fact, lipstick tends to draw attention (or at least from my experience and eyes) to the prominent male jowls and square jawbone. That's the irony of transwomen using makeup and lipstick. It just draws out the prominent male facial skeletal differences. They do look better without the makeup and lipstick.

TesChique · 19/12/2025 19:22

Plateofcrumbs · 19/12/2025 16:05

It's like the plane-with-bulletholes survivorship bias meme.

"trans people don't pass as all the trans people who I recognised as trans didn't pass".

In day-to-day life people don't pay that much attention and will often make assumptions based on cues like long hair etc, precisely as your experience demonstrates.

I LOVE the mumsnetters who "can ALWAYS tell"

I wish i remembered who it was here who said theyd have no trouble realising blaire white was trans if she didnt already know.

Aye dead on course you wouldnt

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:27

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 19/12/2025 14:41

There are also downsides to sharing pronouns all over the place. The area I work in still has a fair amount of prejudice against women. Some women deliberately use initials. You don't really want to repeatedly highlight what sex people are.

So whose agenda do you prioritise?

Yep, Initials are best, see here on this article what happens when a man and a woman did an experiment and swapped email addresses/names for a week. The man saw first hand the sexism his female colleague experienced. It's also why some female authors, for example J.K Rowling , use initials and not their full female name, in order to sell books. Evidence shows that using female pronouns or a female name is detrimental for women in work and business and they are not taken seriously. Compelling women to use pronouns hurts women because of inherent sexism in the workplace. Men get all the credit and the easy ride. Women are better off just using initials and not denoting their sex at all https://womensagenda.com.au/latest/happens-man-signs-off-email-womans-name/

Nevs · 19/12/2025 19:34

5128gap · 19/12/2025 18:52

I don't really understand.
You made an ageist comment, which was a bit daft of you when you were trying to criticise someone else for not supporting inclusivity.
I'm neither 'edgy' nor particularly prone to 'telling it like it is'. I am however a strong opponent of discrimination, hence pointing out your ageism.

No, you’re just one of those people who cannot listen to any sense of reality without throwing in a word with “ism” at the end of it, hoping it will shut up your opponent.

5128gap · 19/12/2025 19:34

Jtfrtj · 19/12/2025 19:15

No, you clearly do not understand, at all.

I was not criticising the OP for not supporting inclusivity. If you read my original post, properly, you will see I referred to the pronoun propaganda as nonsense. Because it is. Utterly. I have no time for it. However when you clock into the office each morning you need to leave your personal feelings to one side, it’s part of being a professional. The work place is not a platform for you to make political statements, that’s not what you’re paid for. That, was the point of my post. I fail to see why that went over your head.

It’s also not ageist to suggest my 50 plus year old ex boss was appearing to show his age with his behaviour, when 20, 30 plus years ago they’d have gotten away with saying much worse as that was the norm at the time in his youth. You need to adapt and move with the times, some do move, while others aren’t willing. People, young, middle aged and old all show their age in many ways at times, call it ageism if you want to. No skin off my nose.

Edited

I responded to your post about your boss criticising 'wokeness' and that you all laughed at him and said he was 'showing his age'.
The ageism is you linking this behaviour to his age group.
Many people in their 50s are extremely 'woke', though we prefer terms like 'committed to equalities' or 'left wing' as 'woke' is a slur.
Many of us are also extremely hot on anti discrimination, precisely because we remember a time when men like him 'got away with all sorts' and we certainly don't want to go back there.
Some of us (me at least!) combine all of that with sharing yours and the OPs views about pronouns. Which is where is gets a bit messy as I can be called both woke and a bigot all at the same time.
I'm not sure you and I are that far apart on this one, give or take the odd point.

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:36

Horrace · 19/12/2025 15:23

I'm considering putting in a complaint to say im fearful of those colleagues stating they are more than one person/sex.
The they/themselves and the he/him/they/thems

Dooooo it!!! I would! Go on, do it. I as a woman am more 'fearful' of those who are 'afraid' of how I say what my pronouns are. If someone is 'fearful' of something as innocuous as "take a wild guess" then I think they shouldn't be allowed out without a carer and clearly shouldn't be holding down a job as they clearly are far too fragile to handle working with people. If I were your boss, I'd find a way to sack the fragile and clearly unstable person who complained about you. A clearly they're not stable enough to work for my company or hold down a job and I'd want a welfare check on them. Sincerely here. If someone is fearful of "take a wild guess" they clearly are not very stable.

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:43

5128gap · 19/12/2025 17:20

Sounds like you're just as bad as him to me with your casual ageism. Or perhaps I'm showing my age thinking that those old school school isms still matter.

Yes, once upon a time, we'd respect our elders, and their knowledge, experience and wisdom passed down. Now, we call them 'boomers' and worse. I'd rather listen to an elder person than a young one. Any day.

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:50

Cybiil · 19/12/2025 17:28

My colleague would not be able to use male toilets as she would be seen as a woman entering men’s space, whilst if she entered a female toilet, no one would bat an eye lid. I understand in your world, men can never present as a woman (by present as a woman I mean assumed/perceived to be a woman by most people), but in the real world this can happen which is why it’s not always black and white.

Firstly, I mean this sincerely, I believe your colleague would be clocked in the ladies. I think you are so used to them that you've become accustomed to seeing them as a woman and so your eyes deceive you. But to 99% of women, our ears and eyes don't deceive us.

Secondly you say;

My colleague would not be able to use male toilets as she would be seen as a woman entering men’s space

Considering the fact that some women (not me, I wouldn't be game enough to) will use the mens when they queue for the womens is so long, and they say they have no problems at all, I don't see why your colleague couldn't use the mens when some actual females do. In fact, many transwomen say they have no problems using the mens, even made up fully as a woman. The worst they get, apparently, is a smirk. They're not in any danger. Actually there is a transwoman on twitter who has videos of them entering the mens, even at the urinals. No problemo!! None at all. Proving it can be done.

And, when you consider effeminate gay men have used the mens for decades, and never once complained about it or tried to use the ladies, the argument that transwomen are not safe in the mens or for some reason can't use them, falls completely apart.

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:55

Cybiil · 19/12/2025 18:06

I understand the argument, but I also see how someone who does pass as a woman can not go into male spaces as they would turned away.

No, they are not 'turned away'. The large amount of women who leave the queue for the ladies and enter the men's, and are NOT turned away, PROVES this. It's just lies and excuses that do not stand up to scrutiny.

jeffgoldblum · 19/12/2025 19:57

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:55

No, they are not 'turned away'. The large amount of women who leave the queue for the ladies and enter the men's, and are NOT turned away, PROVES this. It's just lies and excuses that do not stand up to scrutiny.

Men don’t care 🤷‍♀️, women in the men’s toilets are no threat and some like it!

PoppyWarrior · 19/12/2025 20:31

Oh my OP!

I read the title and thought "Hooray! The tide is turning, the displaying of pronouns is starting to be disregarded"

Then I read your OP ....

And snorted so hard my Xmas Terry's chocolate Baileys came down my nose!

Fantastic OP! I'm now really really afraid ... to read more of your posts in case I end choking with laughter!

Well played and for 4 years!

Diverze · 19/12/2025 20:36

It's not to do with being validated. It's about internal sense of alignment.
What's the difference?

Isn't that obvious?
DC found it impossible for herself to navigate life in male identity. For herself. That identity doesn't rest upon others 'getting it right'.

I don't get it but then I'm not trans, am I?
I "get" a lot of things that I don't share. Lesbianism, for example. I am suspicious of qualities that can only be understood by people who have that quality and cannot be explained to anyone who doesn't.

We, a lot of us anyway, might get a concept but not get what that feels like. I can't tell if you are being disingenuous. I understand lesbianism in principle, but I don't get what it feels like to be sexually interested in boobs and fannies.
Autism is something that many people acknowledge exists but can have no conceptualisation of what it feels like.
One of the often used arguments us that no male person can possibly know what it feels like to be female and of course, yes, but then how is it inconsistent to admit that you also can have no idea what it feels like to be trans?

It's a lot more complex and subtle than some people here might believe. The only people whose acceptance matters to her are those she cares about.
Well that is a bit circular isn't it? As soon as your DC "cares about" anyone they're going to have to "accept" DC as "she" - or what?

Luckily our circle is working very hard on acceptance. Her granny constantly uses male pronouns in error or trips up. DC is fine with that.

Helleofabore · 19/12/2025 20:39

Cybiil · 19/12/2025 18:06

I understand the argument, but I also see how someone who does pass as a woman can not go into male spaces as they would turned away.

Please don’t assume that just because you personally don’t seem to be able to correctly identify a male person’s sex that female people cannot. It is very highly likely that female colleagues have indeed understood (even without being told) that you male colleagues with transgender identities are male people. And quite likely that your male colleagues will have correctly identified their sex too.

I would be highly concerned if your male colleagues ‘turned away’ a male gender non conforming colleague. And why on earth would you think that in public toilets that male people who are gender non- conforming would be ‘turned away’? Has this happened? Or is this an assumption because you personally could not correctly identify your colleagues’ sex classes?

Just because you cannot correctly identify male people’s sex class, please do not assume this is the universal experience. You seem to have used this lack of ability to support a ‘it is nuanced’ argument. It really is not ‘nuanced’. At all.

Your colleagues are male people. If they choose to not use the male single sex provisions, that is their choice. However, the rights conventions are that publicly accessible single sex provisions are based on sex. Not ever on gender presentation.

There are several reasons for this. One is that male people are subject to blanket exclusion from female single sex provisions based on sex class and not on how they appear. This is the only possible safeguarding policy that provides robust safeguarding. There is no evidence at all that a male person at any gender identity will be considered the same risk level of harming a female person by accessing a female single sex space. I absolutely trust my lovely male friends not to harm any female person, however safeguarding policies keep them out of female single sex spaces.

Also, it is now very well evidenced that even with lowered testosterone, any male person going though any part of male puberty will have physical advantages that female people do not develop. Including an average grip strength that remains 150% of the average female grip strength. Plus the lowest quartile of male people’s strength have strength advantage higher than 90% of female people.

Plus, there are many female people who will feel distressed at having a male person in that space. And again, your own lack of ability to correctly identify a male person’s sex class should not be considered in any way universal. Numerous posters have pointed out the body cue differences. Others include even a noticable difference between the top of the lip and the base of the nose as a proportion to facial measurements. And the depth of the bow and shape of the top lip. The shape of the skull is another difference which has been studied well. It is so different that it is noted that the composition of the brains in male and female people are different to accommodate the difference in shape and volume.

You keep mentioning ‘nuance’ . However, robust safeguarding policies are not ‘nuanced’. They are very clear and, to use your terms, ‘simplistic’ and ‘black and white’. No special treatment for any sub group of male people. And no forcing female people to have to make an instant evaluation about whether a male person ‘passes’ or not, nor assess whether they might be someone who will harm them or not on a case by case evaluation

Safeguarding simply does not work that way. Despite the fact that you either think it does or wish that it does.

If a male person understands that his presence may cause a female person distress, why would he be entering that female single sex provision at all? And no female person can give consent on behalf of any other female person, or the entire female population. It simply doesn’t work that way. Rather, the bar for consent needs to be set at the level of the needs of the female people that say ‘I need this space to be female only, no exceptions apart from a child up to about 8 years old.’ That is the minimum standard for consent.

Diverze · 19/12/2025 20:40

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:20

It's not really the dress. It's the gait. The height. The lack of hips. The adams apple. The male jawbone. The limb length, hand size and shoe/feet size. Men seem to have a thicker facial skin too than women. A transwoman doesn't pass even in a full face of make up. In fact, lipstick tends to draw attention (or at least from my experience and eyes) to the prominent male jowls and square jawbone. That's the irony of transwomen using makeup and lipstick. It just draws out the prominent male facial skeletal differences. They do look better without the makeup and lipstick.

DC has size 6.5 feet, funnily enough. Smaller than my natal daughter.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 19/12/2025 22:32

Diverze · 19/12/2025 20:36

It's not to do with being validated. It's about internal sense of alignment.
What's the difference?

Isn't that obvious?
DC found it impossible for herself to navigate life in male identity. For herself. That identity doesn't rest upon others 'getting it right'.

I don't get it but then I'm not trans, am I?
I "get" a lot of things that I don't share. Lesbianism, for example. I am suspicious of qualities that can only be understood by people who have that quality and cannot be explained to anyone who doesn't.

We, a lot of us anyway, might get a concept but not get what that feels like. I can't tell if you are being disingenuous. I understand lesbianism in principle, but I don't get what it feels like to be sexually interested in boobs and fannies.
Autism is something that many people acknowledge exists but can have no conceptualisation of what it feels like.
One of the often used arguments us that no male person can possibly know what it feels like to be female and of course, yes, but then how is it inconsistent to admit that you also can have no idea what it feels like to be trans?

It's a lot more complex and subtle than some people here might believe. The only people whose acceptance matters to her are those she cares about.
Well that is a bit circular isn't it? As soon as your DC "cares about" anyone they're going to have to "accept" DC as "she" - or what?

Luckily our circle is working very hard on acceptance. Her granny constantly uses male pronouns in error or trips up. DC is fine with that.

I can't tell if you are being disingenuous.

No, I'm not being disingenuous. The truth is, I just don't see what you see, and I don't accept what you accept. I don't see that granny is making an error and that DC is not.

But talking about these things online doesn't always get us further. I guess this is as far as I go.

Arraminta · 20/12/2025 00:37

ThatBlackCat · 19/12/2025 19:07

I find it very hard to believe you didn't know they were male. Are you a male or female? I only ask because practically no transwoman actually passes as a woman. Basically zero. They never pass. It's the voice (none can actually have a feminine voice, even with vocal feminisation surgery). The gait. The height. The lack of hips. The adams apple. The male jawbone. The limb length, hand size and shoe/feet size. And it's a hardwired survival instinct for a woman to spot a male. It's hardwired in us. University studies show that women can spot a male even if dressed as a transwoman easily. However men don't have this instinct to spot it. I have yet to meet one single transwoman that even remotely passes as a woman in real life sans internet filters. It just does not happen.

True. Women have evolved to be incredibly good at detecting any men in their vicinity. They've had to. Because 99 times out of a 100 the most dangerous predator in any woman's vicinity would always have been a man.

Even Thai Lady Boys, the moment they move, reveal themselves as men.

Arraminta · 20/12/2025 00:46

MissDoubleU · 19/12/2025 17:25

Yes but the difference between a Thai lady boy and someone you glance at once is that with the lady boy you are looking very closely specifically to try and see the obvious or subtle signs of manhood.

Your average person doesn’t usually stay long enough to ponder on a persons sex, particularly not a child or teen with longhair. They glance. Determine female. Persist forward in their belief to a point of bemusement when corrected.

Sorry but that's just nonsense. You don't need to stand and study a Thai Lady Boy to know they're men. You only have to watch them walking in the distance to know. Even tiny children, can accurately tell the difference between men and women.

Helleofabore · 20/12/2025 05:15

TesChique · 19/12/2025 19:22

I LOVE the mumsnetters who "can ALWAYS tell"

I wish i remembered who it was here who said theyd have no trouble realising blaire white was trans if she didnt already know.

Aye dead on course you wouldnt

Why do you disbelieve that there are people who can ‘ALWAYS tell which people are male people? It is not beyond the realms of belief that there are people who have this ability.

There are studies that show that humans are highly reliable in identifying the sex class of a human simply by looking at 3 D modelled images of facial structures with no hair at all or skin or eye colour. And that doesn’t include seeing the effect of a person’s skeletal arrangement for the rest of their body and how that skeletal arrangement moves.

TheKeatingFive · 20/12/2025 06:07

TesChique · 19/12/2025 19:22

I LOVE the mumsnetters who "can ALWAYS tell"

I wish i remembered who it was here who said theyd have no trouble realising blaire white was trans if she didnt already know.

Aye dead on course you wouldnt

In Blaire's case, the jawline is obviously male. And that's before we get into the walk, the voice, etc.

Blaire's look clearly takes a huge amount of upkeep also. The vast majority of transwomen won't have that kind of resource.

JellySaurus · 20/12/2025 06:49

Interesting how Male Rights Activists insist that it’s not always possible to differentiate a man who presents as a woman from an actual woman, and that they should therefore have access to women’s spaces, yet have nothing to say about how it is not always possible to differentiate a man with malign intent from a man who would not choose to harm anybody.

MRA perspective: you can’t always tell, so you should let them all in, just in case.

Rational, equal rights perspective: you can’t always tell, so you should keep them all out, just in case.