To ask if you think coming into existence is a good thing for every human

[Pavementworrier]

We all live through pain at some point. Hopefully also joy (although I'd say that's a fairly modern possibility for ordinary folk). When you make a child exist is it always a good thing, regardless of the balance of ups and downs? Are you grateful just to be here for this experience no matter how it goes?

(Inspired by a conversation on another thread)

And obviously ideally you could ask babies before they are conceived but you can't so it's just tough luck for the wtf babies

Thinking now about that guy who sued his parents

My mother didn’t want me & I believe (at least) disliked me maybe even hated? She’s rhesus neg & had several miscarriages after me, so she blamed me for that/them. So I regularly feel everything would be better/easier, if i wasn’t alive.

Hm well I hope you can find a way to value your existence for your own sake and never mind what anyone else says on the topic. You definitely don't make things worse by existing - your existence has the power to make things better for everyone around you.

Very true. People have babies in very harsh conditions like wartime and in refugee camps!

I don't think I have the meek acceptance gene...

Why?

Childhood death was rife
Infectious diseases rife
Bone grinding poverty
Horrendous working hours and conditions
Working people didn’t even have the vote in early Victorian times

You don’t have to. I’m sure loads of people didn’t back then either, and some of them worked for rights, social justice etc. That’s how we have moved forward, thanks to those without meek genes.
That said, the meek gene’d among them were the ones who kept the wheels of society greased, provided the labour, the children, and ultimately the wealth that has got us to where we are now.

Horses for courses. But none is better or worse than the other.

No.
😊

If you read her letters and diaries you'll see she got a great deal of pleasure out of many things. She was astute and often quite unexpected in her views. She liked flattery, jewels, Scotland, John Brown, dogs and ponies and meddling in the lives of her offspring. There are photographs of her smiling.

I think people might’ve been happier in the past before central heating as families would’ve heated one room and they would all congregate there. Children only slept in bedrooms so would’ve been downstairs with their family. We are more isolated now.

I have a feeling you are engaged in a bit of light ribaldry here, you cheeky scamp! Your posts have given me a chuckle anyway so thanks for that.
In the vanishingly unlikely event that your posts are actually in earnest, might I recommend, in the spirit of the season, a timely perusal of A Christmas Carol. A novel which, if you take out Scrooge's redemption arc, ghostly visitations and time-travel shenanigans, is also a book which depicts people finding joy and camaraderie in the bleakest of situations. The happy, loving and cheerful home of the financially poor Cratchett family and of Scrooge's impecunious nephew Fred, are juxtaposed with the rich but miserly Scrooge's profound misery and poverty of spirit. Pretty sure indoor plumbing had nothing to do with the varying contentment levels of the characters, rich or poor since the whole story takes place before such a thing was even available to the very rich. There's still plenty of parties and glee going on though. I know it is a work of fiction but I'm pretty sure Dickens didn't invent the concept of fun and it was something of which he had personal experience despite himself having to use a chamber pot!
Being unable to imagine how people who don't live exactly the same way you do could ever be happy is, frankly, a trifle silly. I imagine there are gen Z'ers who believe that life before the advent of the smart phone must have been intolerable, as it's all they've ever known. However, I had a very happy childhood even though we did not get the internet until I was a teenager and, even then, it was only dial-up at first! Kids today just couldn't imagine such hardship!
Why is it that the 'Four Yorkshiremen' Monty Python sketch keeps popping into my head while reading this thread?

Sorry are you saying our lives are not better than the people who wallowed in darkness for millennia?

I am pretty sure having an upstairs was quite a luxury state.

I don't like the idea of being trapped with ten people's farts because there's nowhere else to go. Nor sleeping in the same room as my parents who also created multiple siblings after I started sleeping there.

A gross time has by all.

I would be surprised if I am the first person ever to tell you this - I don't think you have much empathy, friend.

Where’d I say that?
I said that despite our lives being better, we are not necessarily happier.
I mean, no offence OP, you don’t sound like your life is a barrel of laughs right now, for starters.

ETA: no idea what is going on in your life, you just don’t sound very happy. Which I’m sorry to hear of that is the case.

You would’ve known no difference. For most of human existence babies and children have slept with their parents and didn’t really spend much time alone.

@Pavementworrier "There is a reason nobody smiles in early photography"

Yes, and that's because the subjects had to stand very, very still for a long time. Old photography wasn't instant and was a drawn out and uncomfortable process. I think you're also failing to grasp the lack of contraception in days gone by and so people had very limited choice but to have children. Child mortality rates were also extremely high and so the more children you had, the greater your chances of some surviving to help on the farm, with the family business, or to just go out and earn money to put into the pot. Finally, humans have always found joy. Consider the wonderful Stone Age cave paintings, or Bronze Age jewellery.

We didn't suddenly evolve a disgust reflex in 1972

My life is the best it could possibly be (barring the inevitable sickness and death of people I love). People making remarks like yours is another reason I don't love existing as a human. I think most people lack empathy and have no sense of humour and well it bums me out.

Humans have always been able to smell but as we became cleaner due to better hygiene and sanitation we would’ve noticed more.

Yes and as we all stopped smoking which we had to do to make life remotely bearable

Life was “bearable” when people smoked. Obviously people didn’t know the health risks like we do now. A lot of people liked smoking in the past, it made them happy!

On the subject of medieval life OP - what is it about modern life you enjoy? I personally feel tied to my day job and have limited freedom to live an outdoors lifestyle. I dont grow my own food and have a happy extended family set up around me. There’s a lot I actually envy of older and more simpler times.

I studied the medieval period at university. They weren't sat around waiting for Christmas and Easter, they had loads of holy days and celebrations that added excitement and interest to their lives. Far more than we observe now.

And, whilst life was hard compared to what we are used to now, they definitely weren't all miserable all the time. They fell in love, had friendships, raised children, enjoyed singing, dancing, storytelling and art (look into church frescos from before the reformation, life was a lot more colourful than you might think). If you read church reports on different parishes, you'll find that regular people were having fun (even if the church didn't always approve of hangovers getting in the way of church attendance).

Saying they would have been miserable without indoor toilets is just daft. It was their normal. Do you hate your life because you can't 3D print a new car (or whatever the people of the future will see as normal)?

To answer your question, I don't think existing is in the best interest of everyone. Babies and children who have medical conditions so severe that they are in incredible pain, or those that are killed through abuse or neglect for example. But I think the bar is a lot lower than not having indoor plumbing.

I've had some truly horrible things happen to me. I was trafficked, I was homeless, I was an addict, I worked on the streets to be able to eat. I had nearly a decade of it.

Still feel joy, still glad to have been born, still think life is very beautiful.

I never once stopped finding things in life that were lovely. I think that's why I'm still alive.