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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask if you think coming into existence is a good thing for every human

157 replies

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 15:36

We all live through pain at some point. Hopefully also joy (although I'd say that's a fairly modern possibility for ordinary folk). When you make a child exist is it always a good thing, regardless of the balance of ups and downs? Are you grateful just to be here for this experience no matter how it goes?

(Inspired by a conversation on another thread)

OP posts:
Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:02

SomedayIllBeSaturdayNight · 12/12/2025 16:13

And it's not because everyone in Victorian Britain was sad all the time!

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I really think they were very very sad for a lot of awful reasons (yes all the time). Even the literal queen was sad all the time.

OP posts:
everdine · 12/12/2025 17:05

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:02

I really think they were very very sad for a lot of awful reasons (yes all the time). Even the literal queen was sad all the time.

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Queen Victoria was extremely happy in she marriage to Albert but was extremely sad when he died and never really got over his death.

SomedayIllBeSaturdayNight · 12/12/2025 17:05

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:02

I really think they were very very sad for a lot of awful reasons (yes all the time). Even the literal queen was sad all the time.

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Well, you're wrong.

Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:05

MumbleBumbleAppleCrumble · 12/12/2025 16:13

I remember talking to a good friend a few years ago. Talking about climate crisis and how that has changed how I look to the future with such uncertainty and how difficult it is all to bear. I was utterly shocked that she said (and very matter of factly), ‘well, of course, I wish I had never been born, but…’

I was speechless and then I sort of ignored it as she had gone on to talk about the future and climate and existential crisis. But it was completely shocking. To wish you had never been born… now I knew people felt that way SOMETIMES, through depression or crisis perhaps. But to talk about it off hand as if this were a perfectly normal state of affairs. It knocked me sideways.

I was struggling hugely, still do, with the idea that we - humanity- are (seemingly at increasing speed and with an ever increasing plethora of ways to do it) doing our damnedest to wipe ourselves out and take most everything else with us when we go. But I describe it more as mourning for what is and what may not be. And that sorrow comes because I find the world incredible, beautiful and wonderous. I feel so lucky to be here and see the majesty and wonder of nature, the small and incredible kindnesses people can show and the brilliant and masterful things we can achieve.

To find life so awful that you would have rather missed out on it all I find desperately sad. We can never know what may happen and so it’s the journey that really matters.

Edited

I am shocked you are shocked. I would definitely have chosen not to be born if I had the chance to decide. I'm here now and I'm lucky it's been this good (much better than anyone who came in my line before me) and I love the people in my life so much.

But they'll all suffer and die and I'll have to watch it then some will watch me suffer and die and well.

It's really not worth the effort of having to brush your teeth every day imo.

But it just goes to show how totally and utterly different world views can be. (I do find it frustrating that people who are adamantly pro existing then make it harder for others to eg access assisted dying when terminally ill).

OP posts:
Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:07

SomedayIllBeSaturdayNight · 12/12/2025 17:05

Well, you're wrong.

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Based on what evidence? The queen was in mourning for most of her life for her husband and various children. And she didn't have to live in Whitechapel.

OP posts:
everdine · 12/12/2025 17:10

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:07

Based on what evidence? The queen was in mourning for most of her life for her husband and various children. And she didn't have to live in Whitechapel.

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Queen Victoria was very happy in her marriage to Albert so she must have had at least 21 years of happiness before he died!

KilliMonjaro · 12/12/2025 17:14

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 15:48

I find it hard to believe that my ancestors who had to work from dawn til dusk in medial, boring, humiliating jobs just to feed themselves and their families had much time for joy tbh. Not to mention having to use a chamber pot. Double not to mention having to empty other people's chamber pots.

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It a natural instinct to have children op. Plus there hasn’t always been great contraception. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Hoardasurass · 12/12/2025 17:14

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 15:42

For my part, while modern life for the fortunate is pretty fine and our generation in particular has lived through what has felt like a very hopeful period, I find it absolutely unbelievable that people kept having children before indoor toilets and hot showers existed.

Well without contraception what do you expect people to do be celibate just because they didn't have things that wouldn't be invented for millennia?

LiftAndCoast · 12/12/2025 17:15

It really feels like a failure of imagination. Think of someone centuries from now saying they didn't see how anyone in the 21st century could have been happy - they don't live in a post-scarcity society, they have to work crappy jobs that are now done by robots, they don't have a personal spaceship. Or whatever it is that's perfectly normal in 2400 but doesn't exist yet. Of course we're not all sitting around lamenting that we don't have futuristic technologies. Some of them, we probably can't even imagine.

In every period of history people experienced both sadness and joy, no matter how rich or poor they were, whatever they had or didn't have. Most people, bar a few with severe depression, are glad that they were born and have a life, no matter what that life is like. I thought this was going to be a question about children born with severe disabilities, not people without indoor toilets!

SomedayIllBeSaturdayNight · 12/12/2025 17:15

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:07

Based on what evidence? The queen was in mourning for most of her life for her husband and various children. And she didn't have to live in Whitechapel.

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Queen Victoria kept a detailed diary (over 2,500 volumes).
In it, she often describes herself as:

“so amused”

“delighted”

“very happy”

“in excellent spirits”

Examples from her journal entries (paraphrased):

After a dance in 1839: she wrote she was “full of glee” and couldn’t stop laughing.

After a walk with Prince Albert: she described herself as “so happy I could have danced with joy.”

These are her private writings, not public performances—so they are strong evidence of genuine happiness.

everdine · 12/12/2025 17:15

Why would using a chamber pot not make you happy? As long as I could relieve myself I wouldn’t have cared.

Sharptonguedwoman · 12/12/2025 17:21

Sartre · 12/12/2025 16:35

Not necessarily but I do think we all exist for a reason, we aren’t just random blips. If you watch the series Fringe, I think the world is ordered a little like this. I don’t think there’s alternative universes and doppelgängers but I do believe if we try to fuck with the order of ‘destiny’, it can mess up other people’s lives. That sounds so woo but if anyone has seen it you’ll get it. I also picture life a bit like Dr Seuss’s Oh the Places You’ll Go. Life’s mapped out for us with set paths and our freedom of choice is which path to take.

Anyway that aside. The world would be better if some people weren’t born, i.e paedophiles, rapists and serial killers. People who cause deliberate harm to others with zero care.

Sadly, I don't think that at all. I think we are a species adept at surviving, and that's it.

Hoardasurass · 12/12/2025 17:21

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 16:09

There is a reason nobody smiles in early photography

Yes that would be the length of time you had to keep a pose for as it ages to get and image on plate (1st picture took 8 hours of exposure)

Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:21

Hoardasurass · 12/12/2025 17:14

Well without contraception what do you expect people to do be celibate just because they didn't have things that wouldn't be invented for millennia?

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Yes because I like sex as much as the next woman but NOT no showers or toothpaste sex

Maybe I'm a cold fish

OP posts:
Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:23

LiftAndCoast · 12/12/2025 17:15

It really feels like a failure of imagination. Think of someone centuries from now saying they didn't see how anyone in the 21st century could have been happy - they don't live in a post-scarcity society, they have to work crappy jobs that are now done by robots, they don't have a personal spaceship. Or whatever it is that's perfectly normal in 2400 but doesn't exist yet. Of course we're not all sitting around lamenting that we don't have futuristic technologies. Some of them, we probably can't even imagine.

In every period of history people experienced both sadness and joy, no matter how rich or poor they were, whatever they had or didn't have. Most people, bar a few with severe depression, are glad that they were born and have a life, no matter what that life is like. I thought this was going to be a question about children born with severe disabilities, not people without indoor toilets!

I think you are failing to imagine being your husband's property tbh

OP posts:
everdine · 12/12/2025 17:23

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:21

Yes because I like sex as much as the next woman but NOT no showers or toothpaste sex

Maybe I'm a cold fish

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If you had never had showers you wouldn’t miss them! You can clean your teeth without toothpaste!

Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:24

And it's not just about the past it's about the question of whether you think living is a good thing to have a bash at overall

Clearly most people do - I am team no

OP posts:
theladywiththelamp · 12/12/2025 17:26

Raquelos · 12/12/2025 16:44

This thread really brings home how lacking some people are in imagination.

The idea that the comparative material hardship of the past meant that humans didn't experience the same joy and happiness as we do is wild.

THIS

Hoardasurass · 12/12/2025 17:26

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:21

Yes because I like sex as much as the next woman but NOT no showers or toothpaste sex

Maybe I'm a cold fish

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Well you wouldn't have known about those things so you wouldn't care about them as they didn't exist. As for lack of showering you would stink too be grateful that we go nose blind very quickly

SomedayIllBeSaturdayNight · 12/12/2025 17:27

Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:24

And it's not just about the past it's about the question of whether you think living is a good thing to have a bash at overall

Clearly most people do - I am team no

Yes I do.
I don't think it is always easy, I think there is challenge, and pain, and injustice, but there is also fun, and joy, and happiness.

Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:31

SomedayIllBeSaturdayNight · 12/12/2025 17:27

Yes I do.
I don't think it is always easy, I think there is challenge, and pain, and injustice, but there is also fun, and joy, and happiness.

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Yeah I think the balance perception is such an individual thing. I have told my mum about my view on this and she could see what I meant (although then added "don't tell your father" 🤣)

OP posts:
whinch · 12/12/2025 17:32

Sounds like an antinatalist thread

Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:34

theladywiththelamp · 12/12/2025 17:26

THIS

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I don't know who "we" is but I experience no joy in the absence of cleanliness. Knowing my family members will die is haunting. If I couldnt make my own living and be respected as a clever, equal, full human being I would definitely definitely not want to exist. How patronising to assume women of the past were fine with it because "village fairs". After the industrial revolution barely anyone even lived in a village and weekend leisure was a product of the trade union movement.

OP posts:
Original poster
Pavementworrier · 12/12/2025 17:35

whinch · 12/12/2025 17:32

Sounds like an antinatalist thread

No. I think it's very unusual not to prefer being alive. People will exist in grim awful states just to avoid the big end.

I'm more interested in how people feel about the experience of being as a human animal and whether there are limits to any positivity or negativity

OP posts:
theladywiththelamp · 12/12/2025 17:35

I think, OP, you are projecting a modern mentality on a different time. People who were born to servants largely expected to remain servants themselves as just their lot in life. A lot of women believed being a woman (and therefore a man’s property, with no rights and a baby making machine at the possible expense of their own life) was just their lot. People were far more religious and less literate and that religion helped them make sense of their shit circumstances because they truly believed this life didn’t matter so much, because the next one was gonna be so much better. And of course, times were simpler. People found joy in simpler things. As we have become safer, richer and healthier than ever, we have not necessarily found corresponding levels of joy. Which is interesting.