Does Anyone know what a birthing person is ?

[Teacupover5]

Listening to Nicky Campbell on 5 live this morning 9-10 minutes in if anyone wants to listen again .Guest is discussing investigation into declining standards in maternity services .
Refers to women and birthing people being let down .
AIBU to not understand what a birthing person is ,and to wonder if this focus on inclusivity has had an impact on declining care for women ?

A person that is giving / will be giving birth.

If the mother prefers to be known as a birthing person, what’s the problem. Live and let live.

(There is a difference between genuinely not understanding a term and disagreeing with its use. I assume you are actually the latter.)

Freddie lost her case to be named as the father of the baby she gave birth to, ensuring that women - female people - are mothers and not fathers no matter how they identify.

Agreed. I don’t think it should be a catch-all but if an individual wants to be referred to in that manner then I think that’s their affair.

“Not a woman” was literally in my post.

Non-binary is how you like to think of yourself, not what you are.

I can understand the impulse to retreat from the prospect of womanhood - society is pretty crappy to women, and the ever-present threat of male violence alongside a pornified culture makes growing up female a dodgy business at times. Christ knows I'd have done anything to escape it at times.

But biology is a belligerent thing and won't bend to the preferences of mere individuals. Born female, you remain a girl then a woman all your life.

Non-binary IS what I am - no comment on the internet will change that. Saying “non-binary” won’t exempt me from violence either.

Presumably you accept that humans only come in one of two sexes, and therefore you are either male or female. Professor Lord Robert Winston, among others, is very clear on this.

Being the one with ovaries and a uterus, you're the female kind of human. The word for those people, when adult, is women.

A person's gender identity can't affect what sex they are. You can be they/them all you like and good luck to you. Dress how you please with my goodwill and best wishes, not that you need them. But your sex and your gender presentation have nothing to do with one another.

I don't mean to be goady but what IS non binary?

If you mean that you don't conform to gender stereotypes typically associated with either being male or female then nor do I?

I know that I am a woman because my body is that of a female and because I have given birth to a child. Not because of any set of stereotypes,

Well scientifically/medically speaking, intersex is another option.

It’s when you don’t feel that you fit into either the male or female box. It’s slightly to do with not following gender stereotypes, but more so. If someone were to say to you “you’re a man”, the reaction you’d have is how I feel when someone says “you’re a woman” (and “you’re a man”). I’m not either.

Even people with DSDs are all either male or female.

They also, as a community, have asked not to be co-opted into the trans debate.

Scientifically there are only 2 sexes. You are very misinformed.

So what makes you NOT fit in to either the male or female box then?

I'd be very interested to hear an answer to this that doesn't involve gendered stereotypes.

I can't believe that we've gone back to putting people into boxes in this way.

It is fine to be gender non - conforming, Always has been

Agree.

You are (presumably) an adult human female and therefore a woman.
You can call yourself whatever you want but those are the facts

Trans ≠ intersex, that’s correct. One is a gender identity and the other is a biological sex. No surprise they don’t want to be in the trans debate. That would be like including bisexual people.

Scientifically, there are far more than two options when it comes to chromosomes. Here is a table that summarises it thefocusfoundation.org/x-y-chromosomal-variations/

All that has nothing to do with the fact that mammals are all either male or female, that state is immutable, and intersex/people with DSD are also either male or female. Not both, not neither, not a third sex.

Are we still pretending that every woman who's so achingly different that she ceases to be a woman or a man who gets his kicks from pretending he's Shakira suffer from disorders of sexual development?
I thought that got laughed out of town in 2023.

Have you actually looked at that website you linked?????

It's not even pretending to claim that having a chromosomal variation has anything to do with being a different sex from being either male or female. It's not even claiming a link between these variations and gender identities.

Why did you bring people with DSDs up in this thread if you didn't want to use them as a gotcha in this thread and you know they don't want to be brought up in the trans debate.

Believing you have a different gender has nothing to do with chromosomal disorders or disorders of sexual development.

You are female. You have birthed a baby. You don't follow male or female stereotypes (neither to I). This doesn't make you different from any other woman other than in personality.

Of course I did. If we’re talking about biological genders, and usually those are related to the “there’s only XX and XY argument”, the link shows the other variations. These people will be intersex.

I am not female, and also I haven’t birthed a baby 😅

By this logic would you be comfortable in the NHS labelling services for people with eating disorders such as anorexia "services for fat people"? It would make them more comfortable and more likely to access those services.

@justpassmethemouse I am really interested to understand your point of view. You seem happy to describe yourself as female but not a woman. Are you able to explain how you see these as different? As to me they are the same thing.

I'm a breast cancer survivor, had a mastectomy, have PCOS so have facial hair (that i get rid of), always wear trousers and am good and typical "male" things like DIY and am really strong and muscular. But I see myself as just as female and "womanly" as a curvy woman who wears pink enjoys stereotypical "female" things like shopping and getting her nails done.

I'm intrigued as to how you separate "female" and "woman" in your mind as to me they are exactly the same thing (obviously not including female animals etc).

No they are not arguing that these people are intersex. They are claiming that chromosomal differences explain dyspraxia and dyslexia. Read the link you actually posted.

From the link you posted -

News

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Symptoms
Symptoms That Could Be Indicative Of An X & Y Chromosomal Variation

Infancy
Feeding Difficulties – trouble latching on or sucking from the bottle, or was a slow feeder
Texture Avoidance – coughs and/or gags when tasting new food textures
Delayed Ambulation – independent walking after 18 months of age
Congenital Muscular Torticollis – a tilting of the head towards the shoulder due to the shortening of the sternocleidomastoid muscle that is present from birth
Delayed Speech – rarely babbling between 6 and 12 months, or producing no sounds; a “quiet” baby

Preschool
Hypotonia – low muscle tone, particularly in the trunk
Speech and Language Delay – receiving services for speech delay
Sensitivity to Touch – tags in clothing, fusses at haircuts, dislikes getting hair shampooed
Motor Discoordination – difficulty in gross motor skills and fine motor tasks, contralateral movements
By age 3, child uses very few three-word combinations.

School Age
Behavioral Outbursts – seems to ‘explode’ for no reason several times per day
Shyness – more shy or timid than other children in social settings or at school
Clumsiness – falling for no reason, bumping into things often, avoiding sports
Social Language Differences – expressive communication is often delayed in comparison to auditory comprehension, and there could be an incidence of social anxiety
Fine Motor Skills – has difficulty with handwriting, using scissors, hands tire
Reading delays

Adolescence
Delayed Puberty – has not entered pubertal development at same age as peers
Pes Planus – flat-footedness, particularly if only member of family who has it
Tall for his age – height above the 95th centile
Language-based Learning Disorder – persistent difficulty with language-based learning, particularly reading and/or expressive vocabulary
Attentional issues – Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)
Executive dysfunction and associated organization and planning deficits
Decreased muscle tone and strength

Please tell me how this research links to intersex people?

I accept that you have not borne a baby but YOU SAID that you have the type of body that will allow you to carry a child and that as your partner does not have that kind of body you will have that responsibility. You also said you were 'assigned female at birth'.

This means you are female with every fibre of your body. The word for adult human females is women.

@justpassmethemouse
Sorry I should just clarify that i find that research really interesting.

Because two of my children are autistic and have dyslexia, my daughter also has dyspraxia.

They do sometimes offer genetic testing on diagnosis of autism especially where there is more than one family member with the diagnosis.

It's highly offensive to suggest that a chromosomal difference such as this means a person is intersex. That's not how they will experience their life. From the research it seems that very few people even know that they have such chromosomal differences.

It is also highly offensive to co-opt these conditions to explain why you are female but don't want to be considered a woman. This has nothing to do with the gender stereotyped boxes that you said you don't fit into upthread.