Expectations of children in church choirs

[IWFH]

AIBU to think that children in a robed church choir ought to learn how to sit quietly and they shouldn't need bloody activity sheets (which they then argue about) to be given to them in order to keep them quiet, particularly when a couple of them are of secondary school age.
Yes I am of course a miserable old git (can you tell? 🤣) but as an adult choir member it's really irritating that the children no longer seem to be told how to behave or even how to just quietly read the hymn book during the sermon.

I'd expect them to be able to sit quietly when required without recourse to activity sheets or similar at age 7/8, but only if it's something they want to do. DS became a probationer in a cathedral choir aged seven and had no issues with this, nor did anyone else.

We're not a religious family at all, but he was offered the opportunity at his (independent day) school and as he enjoyed singing/we're a fairly musical family (except me!), it seemed a great opportunity. He wanted to do it and thoroughly enjoyed the experience plus it definitely instilled a sense of discipline and independence.

But surely it makes sense to teach them that there's a time and place for everything? A time for messy, unruly, kid-led play, as the diagram puts it, and a time to sit still and be quiet. There's room for both.

I chaperone for various (amateur) performances, with children aged (normally) 5-16yo. They often sit through rehearsals that can be pretty boring for them repeating a scene again and again. They have to spend time waiting in near silence while others are rehearsing, albeit with colouring or similar. They get to see the same parts over and over again.
I have worked with children with ADHD, ASD, ODD, other learning difficulties.

But, you know what, we tell them the expectations and it is really unusual for them not to behave up to the expectations.
They know when we tell them to be quiet, to sit still, to follow me (in the dark) without explanation etc. that they do it.
And the achievement those who find it hard is immeasurable. I remember one dc saying to me that all her form just knew her as the naughty one; now she knew she could do something good. The glow that you get from a child who has struggled at school and now knows they have contributed to a great thing is what makes chaperoning worthwhile.

Currently we've been in rehearsal for a show with around 20 kids aged 4-14yo.
We will be expecting them to sit for about an hour at the back between their scenes in the show. It's cold (outside performance), they won't be able to have anything to do as it's dark and we can't allow phones. They will be doing this for 5 days running with two performances (except for the under 5s who can only do one) each day.
We have children who have various SEN, who struggle at school - and children who are flying at school.
I am confident that their behaviour will be no problem. There will be a bit of wriggling. They may occasionally whisper to me to ask how much longer before their cue. But they will behave in a way that some people here seem to think is ridiculous to ask.
I know because I've been doing it for the last few years, and I haven't seen a change in the way they behave here, where the expectations are constant.

@ruethewhirl Well yes, and many of us do but you must be aware that other parents find this a challenge and the ADHD diagnosis are through the roof. As I said, straightforward compliant dc are fine, others aren’t and many parents don’t expect dc to sit still.

Definitely agree!

Does no one else think they’re too young to be in a church choir? Too young to make an informed choice about religion ergo too young to perform? I find it odd

I find people now think at some points kids develop certain abilities, all without practice or working up to them.

Reading well.

Writing legibly.

Waiting.

Cutting with scissors.

And many others. It seems to start with infants too.

@WackyRacers I thought so! The op disagreed because her dc could do it and she did it. The ones needing activities probably aren’t ready.

@Applespearsandpeaches I thought we were talking about 8 year olds, not 12 year olds?

It was full Mass. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei and Eucharist. Yes. I also went on to sing at grade 8, but didn’t see my future in song! It was lovely taking part in choral works though!

From OP: “they shouldn't need bloody activity sheets (which they then argue about) to be given to them in order to keep them quiet, particularly when a couple of them are of secondary school age.”

So I assume some are 11 or 12. Though to be honest I expected my child as an eight year old to sit properly through a church service without activity sheets or messing around as well.

Thank you @Applespearsandpeaches Pleased that you read my posts 👍.

I started this thread to check that my views on this weren't horribly out of line (isn't that the point of AIBU? 😁) and I've got what I hoped from this thread, i.e. that the vast majority (89%) here seem to think I'm not being unreasonable. I'm not sure why a couple of posters appear to be on a crusade to disagree, I've stopped engaging with them and just said I'll agree to differ.

Personally I think the issue here is that some people just expect too little of children and therefore won't even bother to set reasonable boundaries around their behaviour.

@IWFH I didn't vote but should I have done so, I'd have voted not unreasonable.
I think it is reasonable to expect most children of secondary school age to sit quietly through a church service without the need for activity sheets but only if that has been made clear to them by their parents that that is what is expected, they've agreed to it without pressure and they actively want to be there. I doubt any of the above has taken place. The failing here is with the parents not the children.

We might actually agree on more than less. But if I am one of the couple of posters who you describe as being on a crusade to disagree and have thus stopped engaging with me, I'm afraid that's just not true. You stopped disengaging because I asked you to provide evidence or at least give your reasons as to why you think that these children aren't bored to tears by the church service and want to be there. I can only conclude that you can't do that because the children are indeed bored and would give most anything to get out of going to church on a Sunday morning.

@redboxer321

I actually formulated a response to you at the time and then deleted it because I ddn't see the point responding and appearing to be confrontational. Since you have wrongly accused me of having no answers I will now reply.

1 - Yes I know that church attendance has been falling for years but that doesn't mean that nobody wants to be there.
2 - The parents are not providing activity sheets. The church has decided to. This is the whole reason behind my AIBU.
3 - Evidence? They seem to sing well and engage well when singing. We all know that bits of church services are boring. I expect younger choir members to live with that as they have done for centuries. I'll repeat the issue - I don't believe the children have been given clear guidance how to behave during the service.
4 - This has nothing to do with my AIBU
but It's not my place to bring this up with the parents or the children because this is not my regular church choir, I'm an occasional choir visitor (but do know the people involved well).

I'm afraid I think that your bad experience (for which you have my sympathy) has coloured your judgement on this. I had an (almost 🤣) entirely positive experience of singing in a church choir as a child and I suspect my children would say the same.

I can only conclude that you can't do that because the children are indeed bored and would give most anything to get out of going to church on a Sunday morning.
This is a MASSIVE assumption about people you have never seen or met. I disagree with your conclusion and I'm in a far better position than you are to draw a conclusion.

I think the obvious answer to not go to that particular church any more and stick to your regular one.

Personally I think the issue here is that some people just expect too little of children and therefore won't even bother to set reasonable boundaries around their behaviour.

I think that this is the crux of the matter. DH ran a robed church choir for a while that sang the major Anglican choral repertoire. One of the older members of the congregation gave the church a large sum of money to buy Mission Praise hymnbooks as it would provide something "more child friendly" to sing. The issue was that he had totally underestimated the children (most of the children who came to church were in the 30 strong junior section of the choir). They really didn't like things like SHine Jesus Shine but if you hung around in the vestry after the Ascension Day service you'd hear lots of snatches of Ascendit Deus.....

DH found that the best people to police the behaviour of the younger ones were the older choristers. Few 7 year olds can withstand the steely glare of a 13 year old. The 13 year old is also well aware that it is possible for a 7 year old to sit still and behave. Having said that DH's choristers did process out during the gradual to have a scripture lesson before they processed back during the offertory hymn.

Are you always so ageist?

I'd expect that of them from 5 or 6 providing no special needs.

@ruethewhirl I’m 70. The observation about the older members is true! We’ve had loads that don’t like the vicar. They refuse to go to any more after their grumpy complaints got nowhere. Younger people seem happy!

TBF, I've come across individuals who fit the trope too, most definitely! 😄 I just felt the casual ageism in pp's post required some calling out as it's too easy sometimes to dismiss people's opinions by linking them to their age.

I've seen misbehaviour by older choristers too: whispering during communion, making faces, excessive rustling of sheet music. I was once told not to run through the church when robed: it makes people think there's an emergency. I'm sure that in Joanna Trollope's The Choir, the director screams "WELLIES!" when looking at some choristers who arrived late.

And that reminds me: an issue which was once very divisive at my parents' church was young altar servers wearing trainers: this was strictly forbidden, as it "clashed with their cassocks". Also @Londonmummy66 , I agree about the teenagers, like school prefects: there was an older teenager in charge of the younger altar servers, and her strictness was legendary. It was even referenced in the church pantomime: "I've got to meet the wicked witch, and she's really scary, just like that head altar server, especially when you drop incense on the carpet".